Teacher social justice with guest Adam Jordan
For the spring 2021 season finale Adam Jordan returns to discuss the exciting events that the All Y’all Social Justice Collective will be bringing your way this summer and fall. We also talked more about the state of our profession and where social justice fits into the teaching profession. There was actually so much to discuss that we will continue our conversation in another episode in the fall season.
Links
All Y’all Social Justice Collective (including Down Yonder Zine)
Teacher Salary Project-we briefly mentioned their work our conversation
Transcript
Scott Lee 0:01
Greetings, friends and colleagues. Welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee, I hope you are safe and well. As we conclude our spring 2021 season, we will have the first of a couple of conversations with Adam Jordan, who we originally met last fall. Adam is an associate professor of special education at the College of Charleston, co director of the All Y'all Social Justice Collective, Southerner and Appalachian from the rural North Georgia foothills. A former K-12, alternative, middle and high school teacher, Adam's work focuses on creating equitable and healthy spaces for students the system calls at-risk, but that he calls at-promise. We will start our discussion talking about upcoming events sponsored by the All Y'all Social Justice Collective and then we'll talk about current issues of equity facing our profession. Thank you once again for joining us on The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast Adam Jordan.
Adam Jordan 1:11
Yeah, glad to be here. Thanks for bringing me back. It must not have been too bad the first time?
Scott Lee 1:16
No, it was great. A lot of people were very interested in hearing what what you and Rebecca had to discuss last time. So glad we could work it out and have you back again.
Adam Jordan 1:29
Yeah, we appreciate what you do.
Scott Lee 1:31
Thank you. So last time, we talked mostly about professional development, and some of the things that All Y'all has done in the past. And again, we were at the time in the middle of COVID, which we're coming out of now. And so what is happening with the all y'all social justice collective in the future, and I'm thinking mainly about this summer, but also about next summer.
Adam Jordan 1:57
Yeah, sure. So we last time we talked, we were kind of in the midst of COVID. And we really didn't know what was about to happen. You know, there's a lot of figuring stuff out. But now I feel like we have pretty good vision. So there's no conference face to face this summer, just because things were not out of COVID we're just coming out of COVID. So we're giving it another another year the plan next summer, we'll be back face to face as we were in Charleston, as was planned for 2020. But for now, if you recall, last time we spoke, we had put out a call for a zine that we called Down Yonder. And Down Yonder was literally just a call for people across the south educators or not to kind of put out their story of COVID and resistance and what it looked like. The response was pretty huge. We got tons and tons of submissions. And we got so many that we thought really this is too cool to be just like a one theme that we throw out and everybody reads we got a we got to find some way to still connect people in a real way. So what we've done is we have selected authors and contacted them. And each month starting in June, we will be featuring one story from the down yonder submissions on the website, ally'alledu.com, where you can go and read the story. And then towards the end of the month, we'll be having a live q&a Zoom with those authors where you can go and talk to them. ask any questions, though. Some of them may choose to do a live reading of their piece depending on what the piece looks like. In June, we have Emily Blair, she's in western North Carolina. She's doing a brilliant piece. On in July we're doing JT Taylor, who is up at Penn State. He's a special ed professor. We have several more I won't lay them all out. Some of them are kind of surprises we want to drop in at the end. But those are those are those are the two that are going to kick off the series.
Scott Lee 3:44
I've actually read something and I don't remember what it isn't. Doesn't JT Taylor? Isn't he focused on bullying?
Adam Jordan 3:52
Yeah, he does. He does do some work on on bullying in his in his day in his day job.
Scott Lee 3:59
Okay. Okay. Yeah, cuz I think I've read some of his work. So that's
Adam Jordan 4:04
a professor, especially at at Penn State.
Scott Lee 4:07
Okay. Okay, well, we'll definitely put a link to that for everybody and make sure and share that on our Twitter feed as well. So
Adam Jordan 4:16
yeah, so the goal is to run one a month through the end of the year through the end of 2021. And, you know, build some build some steam and it's not building steam for the conference. It's just reconnecting, you know, there's there are so many people, they experienced this pandemic, we all experienced it different, but we also experienced some similarities. Right. And part of that similarity, I think everybody experiences just as disconnectedness, you know, it's combating that combating that disconnectedness that is kind of occurred.
Scott Lee 4:45
This wasn't really what we were planning to talk about. But it is interesting to me because one of the things that that I've been not really struggling with, but thinking about a lot is some things that we've learned through the pandemic have been great for keeping people connected. I mean, I'm just thinking about right now the video feed between you and I is much better than it probably would have been two years ago, because a lot of infrastructure changes and things like that. And just a lot more focus on that piece of the technology, which is great. And it's exciting. But it also doesn't really replace the in person connection either. And, and having that connection is good, but it still doesn't replace
Adam Jordan 5:30
doesn't, right? It doesn't replace but, and this is coming from one of the most introverted people you've ever met, probably man, I'm kind of one of those people that I'd rather be sitting on trout stream not talking to anybody for a while. But it's an it's a more inclusive way of doing things. Sometimes you don't I mean, like, we're able to open up this space, for example, the down yonder call, you know, it doesn't matter where you are on the planet, you can turn on your computer, and you can engage with a really brilliant, somebody's talking about something that really means a lot to you. And that's great. And if you have, you know, economic challenges and getting to a place if you have mobility issues, if you're all these different things. I mean, it's a, it's part of the it's a good piece of the ecology of connectedness, you know, it's a good piece of communicating with one another. So it can be overdone. And we've all got Zoom fatigue, but it serves a function too. So we're glad we can do
Scott Lee 6:23
it. That is exciting. The last time we talked last fall, y'all were strictly talking about just doing the online zine not, you know, not having the interactive piece, you know, I think just an awesome addition to go along with it.
Adam Jordan 6:38
Yeah, it was really the submissions that pushed us that way. You know, Rebecca and I are both hermits. It's really easier for us to say, let's just put this thing out, because it's really cool. But the pieces came together so well. And we hired a student illustrator who illustrated all the pieces and put them together and kind of a story form and it all came together looking so brilliant. You thought, Man, there's so much intellectual capital right here, you can't just throw this on the internet, you have got to put it out there and then let people talk about it. Because that's where the stories come from, you know, the stories come from reading something, and then talking about it. And and seeing how that story moves you because it might it's gonna move you differently than it was me. And when we talk about it, you know, we get to a better story. So I think that's the goal.
Scott Lee 7:24
Yeah. The nice thing about it, too, I mean, one of the things that I have missed, you know, in the pandemic, but really before, also, you know, sort of the demise of independent bookstores, I think, is having readings from, you know, author readings. And this is a great way to do that in a different way. And the nice thing is, yes, it's so hard, trying to get people to come in and speak and trying to get that funded, even at a larger college like College of Charleston, I'm sure it's very difficult, more difficult than it used to be.
Adam Jordan 7:57
Yeah. And so it's absolutely difficult. And in some ways, it i'm not saying we'd never do it, but it can be wasteful to I mean, I think that we can do we can be better stewards of the money that we have. Yeah, using things like this when appropriate. I mean, that doesn't mean you don't bring people in sometimes, because you still need to have human experiences. But when you can do something cool, and you can do it at a low cost, and you can bring conversation, why wouldn't you do it?
Scott Lee 8:21
Right, I'm looking forward to that. But also, looking forward to the, I guess, the full group coming back together again. Next year, I had, I had, I had already cleared my schedule to come to Charleston last summer.
Adam Jordan 8:36
So we all had cleared our schedules. It was on the ver-, it was very personally hard to cancel that conference, just because people may not realize that All Y'all is not some gigantic consortium of people. It's a few of us who do this in our extra town. You know, this is none of our day jobs. And it requires a lot of labor. So we had pulled together such a cool conference. And you know, I'm not a I'm not a crying man. But I have big alligator tears, and we had to cancel that thing. So I'm so I'm excited to get back together. What's been cool. And what makes me feel like it matters is because people haven't dropped off like people have stuck with it. You know, we've reached out some of the people that were going to be there in 2020 and said, How do you feel about 2022? And overwhelmingly the responses, I'm there, this is great. You know, that makes me feel good. Because you know that people care about what's going on?
Scott Lee 9:27
Yeah, absolutely. And I do know, I've been on a couple of conference or well, eight or 10 conference committees over the years. And same thing. It was not something that was part of my job. It was extra and I know how much time goes into putting all that together.
Adam Jordan 9:48
Never tried to put a conference on. We should try that once in your life. Go have a new appreciation.
Scott Lee 9:55
Maybe only maybe you only try at once but definitely definitely. Definitely Try at one. Oh, I know. I just can't imagine, you know, I think about a couple of them in particular, where we're where we really brought in a couple of big national, international people. And if we had had to cancel them, it just would have been brutal.
Adam Jordan 10:18
And keep in mind, we do it all without charging registration fee, right? Oh, yeah.
Scott Lee 10:22
Yeah, no. And that's, that's, that's hugely important. You know, I look at some of the conference registrations. I'm like, you know, what teacher can afford? Oh, one 800 bucks, I don't care. I don't care how many, even if you don't care how many meals you include
Adam Jordan 10:37
$800, I would argue that if you're a teacher, and you have an extra 800 bucks, you shouldn't spend it on a conference, you should invest in somewhere else.
Scott Lee 10:48
One of the things that I wanted to talk about with you in particular, is where social justice falls in schools. And I'm thinking about, from a teacher practice standpoint, a professional practice standpoint, a lot of teachers I know, are aware that social justice is an issue, I guess, you know, my first thought is, where do you see social justice and awareness of social justice playing out for a teacher within their professional practice in general. And I know we talked a little bit about that last time, we were together, but I'd like to just dive a little bit more or a little bit deeper into that issue, the the place of social justice and awareness of social justice, and what a teacher who's aware of social justice ought to be thinking about not to be doing that they, it's something they might be afraid of, or concerned about doing. I guess does that makes sense?
Adam Jordan 11:53
Yeah, absolutely. Makes sense. Unfortunately, we've made that word, that phrase, "social justice," kind of a buzzword, right? So I would kind of reframe it all in my head. And there's two quotes that come to my head, I'm doing both from memory. So if they're scholars out there that say that I said it wrong, you should believe them. I probably did say it wrong but Paulo Friere says [you] know, "washing one's hands between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful not to remain neutral." Right. Fellow southerner. Lerone Bennett Jr. says that "an educator in a system of oppression is either a revolutionary or an oppressor." I take both of those quotes heavy to my heart all the time. And they sort of I try to use those ideas as sort of litmus tests to to help me decide what I need to do in a given situation. So here's the reality the situation is teachers are under incredible pressure. Now, as they have this heightened, I would almost call it frenzy around Are you being what is social justice look like in your classroom? Are you talking about this concept of that concept? Or you know, you can't talk about that there's so much buzz, right? Today, I have much more faith in teachers as being really smart, professional people that go about their job, kind of with those ideas in mind of what is my What is my rationale for why I'm a teacher, what is my function right here. And I would argue that if you're a teacher in public schools, part of that function is bettering society is, is is looking for equity and peace and justice, and those types of things. And that's from the social studies teachers to the math teacher to the PE teacher, right how you greet people, how you how you approach your your classroom, your classroom, phrase, I hate your classroom management, whatever it is, however you go about the day to day things that is teaching. I think those have to be done from a justice oriented perspective. So you can't legislate those things away. I feel like you cannot legislate away a person's disposition and on the way about going about their life.
Scott Lee 14:00
I try not to get too political, but it's hard not to be political, especially now. our profession is a public service. You and I may not be directly accountable to elected officials. But I mean, most teachers are most public school teachers are. I'd say it's gotten to a point where it's impossible to sit on the sidelines to not have a political view, because our jobs have become so politicized. I know teachers didn't intend for that to happen for the most part. But you know, we can't seem to avoid it anymore,
Adam Jordan 14:39
which really makes me It puts my brain in this place where I think when we talk about teachers, right, what is their job? What should teachers be doing for social justice? And if anything in this pandemic, if you didn't figure out anything at all about teachers, you figured out a couple things they're important. Schools are kind of the lifeblood communities, right? So I would argue that we have to reframe this conversation a bit and stop really asking what a teachers need to do. But while that is an important conversation, it's bigger than that. What I mean, if public education is is everybody's to everyone in the communities benefit is for everyone, right? Sure. But what is everyone doing to make sure teachers are in a space where they can educate toward equity? What are what is everyone doing? You know, I think about the teachers that I work with, and the stress that they go under, day in and day out, and they just keep doing it. And then they tell you their paycheck, and you're just, you know, it's heartbreaking, man. And this is the concepts been talked about ad nauseum. Right? Right. Well, yeah, we're still talking about it, we're still talking about it, they'll haven't done anything about it. So we're asking what more can these people do
Scott Lee 15:49
without? And you know, shout out to Teacher Pay [Salary] Project? Right? I think you supported them. I am also part of what bothers me, particularly some things that I'm reading from pundants would one of the things we need to be yelling about or not yelling about, but having serious discussions about is this idea that I'm seeing the word indoctrination, that people have this idea, your as a professor of education, I know you can tell everybody, this is not what's happening. People seem to have this idea that teachers are spending all of their time talking, giving a test, and every student has to get a test, or has passes the test by parroting back whatever it is, the teacher has said. And of course, that's just not true. I think one of the things that we can do is make sure everybody understands what it is what's really going on in a classroom. Because I do not know, I knew a couple of teachers when I first started, who still would try and lecture for 45 minutes. But nobody does that anymore. If I go into schools all the time, I can't find any teachers doing that. So even if they were trying to indoctrinate,
Adam Jordan 17:13
right. But you said a key thing right there. You said I go into schools all the time, and I can't find it. And I really think that's what it is. We have this make believe idea of what school was. And for some people that's based on the school day experienced 10, 20, 30 years ago, you know, or more. And that's just not the way it happens. Right? schools adapt and change and they're complex. So I would say that people need to broaden their experiences in schools. I mean, what is it you can do to find some way if you're not a, if you're not like us and have easy access to going in system? I understand that it's hard. But there are lots of other things that you could do. I mean, asking a teacher how you could help them ask a principal where you could volunteer. I mean, there's so many things you could do that I think that wants the myth becomes people like once we have this idea of school and teacher, which are nebulous things without faces, or names, or 401k, or mortgages. Unless that becomes like Danny and Teresa and Johnny that you know what I mean, once those people become actual things, I do think these conversations change, because I think you then see, and I think that's true about any profession, I think about my dad as a welder, and everybody would think they knew what that was. And he's thinking you have no idea or you know, things like, you know, farmers farmers always get talked about, like, oh, man, you got it made, you know, you're living on all this land, having a great time. And they're thinking like, I haven't had a vacation in six years. I mean, right? So there's just those lived experiences, that if you don't have them, then you make them up. And that's when you get in trouble.
Scott Lee 18:45
Mm hmm. I wonder about that. Because you you mentioned the myth and the narrative, it is concerning to me, because I think that there are probably a lot of people out there who are like, Well, my kids school is pretty good, because they're the things that they're doing. You know, my kid has been involved in a bunch of service learning projects, they do a bunch of critical reading, and they discuss and there's debate going on, and, and it's wonderful. I wish every other school would do the things that my kids school do, does.
Adam Jordan 19:18
And then have them ask that follow up questions. Why can't those schools do that? You know, what is prohibiting schools? You know, I think when you when you dive into schools, what you see is we don't have equity in schools like we do, we still do have schools funded on property values, which are not the same across communities. You know, I mean, there's so many variables. And and, and hopefully that, that that's what I was trying to say at the beginning of this and start realizing those things and going how can we make this better? How can we make this better,
Scott Lee 19:48
right? The property value funding is an issue as well. I know from when I was looking for work right out of college, I had an uncle with a farm I'm out in a rural area. And I'm like, Well, if I could get a teaching job there, I could go live with him. And I started looking at the pay scale. And I'm like, Yeah, man, you can't, I could make it only if my uncle would let me free room and board.
Adam Jordan 20:15
That's exactly right. And I don't know that people really realize that, right was that people make different amounts of money based on where they teach. And then a lot of times we disincentivize and it's not that I say disincentivize like we're making people not want to, I know plenty of people that would want to go and teach where you're where your uncle's farm is at, but they can't afford to, like it's just not. It's something they can't do. Which is, which is opens up a whole nother thing that we don't have time for. This is why a lot of people leave. This is why I'm sitting in Charleston, South Carolina and not Pocataligo, Georgia, I had to go somewhere where I could make a living and raise my family, you know?
Scott Lee 20:51
Yeah, we were talking about it. Before we started recording in order to continue teaching and make a living. I ended up teaching in Georgia, in the metro Atlanta area for several years had no problem with it. And here we are talking about equity issues, and its problem with equity. And we're still talking about teachers. We haven't even really scratched the surface on the equity problems with students that this is a part of also.
Adam Jordan 21:18
That's bigger than one podcast, man.
Scott Lee 21:20
I know. I know. It is.
Adam Jordan 21:22
Yeah, we're still talking about teachers. That's a great point. And we've been talking for 20 minutes. I don't know when when it gets edited out. It may be shorter, but we haven't even got the student issues. Right. I would, I would argue that until until we have teachers in an equitable space, we're never going to get students in equal space either like they they're going to have to happen. This has to happen together. Right? Right. All has to come together. We cannot have a group of people who are absolute professionals, economically oppressed and told repeatedly that they're just indoctrinating people to become, you know, Marxists. We cannot have that and then expect equity on the student side to
Scott Lee 22:02
This concludes the spring 2021 season of The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast. We will hear the rest of our conversation with Adam Jordan at the beginning of the fall season. Thank you to everyone for listening and I look forward to joining you again this fall. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we help schools and youth organizations implement high quality, holistic and equitable interventions, please visit our website oncourse solutions dot net. This has been episode number 31. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about it either in person or using social media. We also greatly appreciate positive reviews on the podcast app you use. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is hosted and produced by R. Scott Lee who retains copyright. We encourage diverse opinions, however, opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of producer, partners, or underwriters. Guest was not compensated for appearance, nor did guest pay to appear. Transcripts are available following podcast publication at our website, thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Sponsorship opportunities and other inquiries may be made on the "Contact Us" page at our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Please follow the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast on twitter @drrscottlee and on facebook@facebook.com Thoughtful Teacher Podcast.
