No We Are Not Teaching Communism with Adam Jordan
We start the fall season continuing our conversation with Adam Jordan. Adam and Scott discuss how focusing on equity is not indoctrination it is simply the right thing to do.
Outline
Continue discussion of equity for teachers and how teachers need to treated equitably
Teachers are not indoctrinating students to become communists
How the teaching profession has become a target
Transcript
Scott Lee 0:01
Greetings, friends and colleagues. Welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee, and I hope you are safe and well. I also would like to announce that the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast has joined in partnership with Kay Blada Recycling and their work supporting teachers in Haiti. We ended the spring season with the first part of a conversation with Adam Jordan recorded in June 2021, which we will conclude now. Adam is an associate professor of special education at the College of Charleston, co director of the All Y'all Social Justice Collective, an Appalachian, and a southerner from the rural North Georgia foothills, a former k 12, alternative, middle and high school teacher, Adam's work focuses on creating equitable and healthy spaces for students, the system calls at-risk, but he calls at-promise. We continue our conversation discussing equity issues for teachers, we left off talking about the problems with pay and equity and we will continue by discussing the negative public narratives educators are facing.
Adam Jordan 1:30
I would argue that until until we have teachers in an equitable space, we're never going to get students in equal space either like they they're going to have to happen, this has to happen together. Right? Right. All has to come together, we cannot have a group of people who are absolute professionals, economically oppressed and told repeatedly that they're just indoctrinating people to become, you know, Marxist, we cannot have that and then expect equity on the student side too
Scott Lee 1:57
It kinda leads into the other piece that I'd like for us to talk about is you mentioned this idea. I think it's important that everybody know that this is being said, but on the other hand, I don't really want you to give it give it voice, you know, the headline of an editorial originally ran in the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. And I see it here, because our local paper has the same owner, the headline was "Equity equals Marxism" and that's the narrative, to me a very concerning narrative. And it goes along with what we're talking about, in that there's this incorrect perception, not only that we're indoctrinating students, but that we're indoctrinating them to turn them into communists that we're going to destroy capitalism, teachers are using equity to destroy can destroy capitalism, and that was, he didn't come right out and say that, but that was certainly the point. The point where I see that leading concerns me also, I mean, you know, we're looking at legal discrimination being passed in several states, including yours and mine, and varying degrees, where now discrimination of LGBTQ students is required. We can't talk about structural racism. I mean, literally, you can lose funding in Tennessee now, if teachers do that, as you and I a couple of white educators, we need to be pushing back and saying, This is wrong. Absolutely.
Adam Jordan 3:44
I mean, it goes back to those two quotes. I mean, what are you going to side with? You got it, there's only you're going to pick oppression or not, like, that's it, you're going to pick oppression or not. So and that's why this issue is way big. We can't ask teachers to fix this. Right? Say, how are teachers gonna do it anyway? Are they going to close their door? And you know, I've heard lots of people saying that it has to and agree that's true. You know, right now, teachers teach and, and they control how they how they do that to an extent, but you're right. They're often legislated right into a corner. But we can't only ask them to come back and fight back against us, those of us with a lot, a lot of privilege have to scream a lot, you got to holler a lot, you know, as a university professor, you know, I feel like my job is to advocate for human rights and education. And that's what I'm going to do is probably a safer space than the teacher, you're probably in a safer space than a classroom teacher to do those things. Right.
Scott Lee 4:37
I wouldn't I would never be doing this podcast if I were a classroom teacher. Yeah, yeah, absolutely not. I wouldn't even think about it.
Adam Jordan 4:44
Right. That's exactly right. So that's the big question then right is what do we do collectively, to combat this? Or how do we empower teachers to to stand up for what's right and that's a big, huge, multifaceted, multi professional. complex question that I don't have the answer to, but I know the answer is not "what of those teachers gonna do", right? I know that that cannot be the answer that we cannot, you cannot stand on your privilege and say, Well, what are they going to do? They chose to be teachers, they need to figure this out. I'm afraid that that ultimately what's going to happen is the consequences what we see now, which is increased attrition rates. And people everyone has a breaking point teachers are some of the most durable people you've ever met just by function of what they do. They're durable, and they take a lot, but at some point, they're going to say, I can't do this anymore. And that that is really my biggest fear, Aside from the obvious fear what that does to the students. I wish the legislators targeted. That's a whole nother complex conversation. But in terms of what it does to the ecology of our schools. People should be worried about that. I don't know if they are and I don't know. And I don't know, Scott, it's kind of it's a mess, like the frog in boiling water analogy. I don't know if it's like, this is not the first time this legislations popped up. We've had legislation like this in different areas, different facets forever, right. Sort of like I worry that people have become a little bit not content with it. But it's not it's lost some shock appeal, because we're not that shocked anymore about terrible things. Terrible things, unfortunately, in 2021, are not that shocking. So have we just been the frog in the water? And it's heating up? And?
Scott Lee 6:24
And yeah, I mean, I think about and you probably remember some of this, too, maybe you may have had a similar experience when you were a classroom teacher or not. I remember filling out job applications for teaching jobs where I had to sign that I had never been a member of the Communist Party. And I'm like, is this still a thing? And then I thought, you know, I mean, it's no big deal. Because even even if, even if I had been a member of the Communist Party, and lied on that they'd never be, they would never have been able to fire me for it, I don't think. But the other thing I worry about is stuff like that signals. It sends a signal, this legislation sending a signal to us. And there was a time when teachers would have had 1950s, Red Scare and all that. You could have said, Whatever. I'm going to shut my door and teach and nobody's going to bother me anyway. So there were times when I even even when stuff like that was on the books, I don't think you would have, you wouldn't have worried about it. And I'm not so sure that we're in a place where you can do that now.
Adam Jordan 7:44
Oh, I don't think we're in a place where you can do that now. And I think that that function, many things. One is teachers are a popular thing to discuss right now. You know, it's popular to talk about it hasn't always been that way. Yeah, well, that's true. Even in our classroom teaching careers. I mean, I can go back just 10 years ago and think I nobody, nobody was really that I was teaching alternative ed kids with behavior disorders, as long as nobody was getting injured in my class, right. Everyone was cool, right?
Scott Lee 8:11
It was like, Oh, yeah, you went two weeks without doing a disciplinary referral? Yeah, you're the guy.
Adam Jordan 8:17
No, that's not true anymore. And it's also not true in that how quickly a teacher can become like a target on social media, like how quickly you know, something they do can get captured on some type of recording device, some type of society anyway, share all around. I understand how scary that has to be. As a teacher, I think about it as a college professor, I'm always thinking like me, me make sure me think especially in this zoom era, when everybody right here, you're thinking, you know, I don't want to have a I don't want to say anything that I haven't fully vetted in my brain and have it broadcast to the world. I can I can understand that anxiety that has that teachers have to have I think that's realistic.
Scott Lee 9:01
You know, I've been thinking about more, just some of the situations that I know of where principals are having to deal with complaints more from parents that are out of line, I wouldn't even think about the social media and recording.
Adam Jordan 9:18
Right, exactly. And I think those things are connected. I think that the social media kind of craze around educators has caused people to ask bigger, not bigger, it's, it's kind of prompt them to then go complain about things there is much more. They're much more heightened in their awareness, but they're not more educated on what it is they're playing the follow up to that. Have you ever been a part of the Communist Party? Would it be like, Can you explain what you mean by this? And I guarantee you, they wouldn't have most people wouldn't have a clue of how to explain
Scott Lee 9:48
because one of the things that that I think about with communism and Marxism and and stuff like that, there's a psychologist who I use a lot or use his work a lot when I do presentations with schools, a guy named Martin Brokenleg who's co author of a book, Reclaiming Youth at Risk. But one of the things that he talks about, Malcolm Gladwell also has written an entire book about it. I don't remember which one off the top of my head, the the rule of 150. And it talks about what true tribalism is, people, you know, have evolved to sort of operate in these smaller groups and work collectively not individualistically. And it's like, you know, you could really be having a discussion on that and have a totally misconstrued by somebody who wants to make that about communism or Marxism could do it. There's just no way that could be with scrutiny anybody could believe you're doing that. But you're right. in a, in a world like we live in right now, with social media, where you only get what 200 and something characters on Twitter, you can make the argument,
Adam Jordan 10:58
you can absolutely, and I would argue to that all of this stems from an equity anyway, like, I would argue that a lot of people really fired up right now about teachers in a bad way, have probably had some negative school experiences, they've probably felt exclusion themselves in some way in school, schools, you know, and I think that's why we have to make schools mentally healthy places that are inclusive, because, you know, if we have people that have felt that school was something that was not, it didn't benefit them, that they felt oppressed in school, however, they manifest that decision in their own head, they're going to then go out and attack school because it was something negative. Right. So I think that it all comes back to that, you know, you deal a lot in terms of trauma. I think when we look at the traumas that people experienced in schools, they lead to attitudes like this, I just think they inevitably lead to attitudes. Right? If I go to a restaurant, and you you tell me, I can't stay here, because my accents too thick. I'm not coming back. And every time I see your restaurant, I'm going to make sure everyone knows it's terrible, right? a silly example. But you get my point, right, is that if we have people that have experienced, and justice themselves are going to bring it back one way or another,
Scott Lee 12:11
I love the way that you point that out. Really interesting and thoughtful way to look at it is that this whole argument is as a result of inequity, I had not really put that turn on it. But I think that I think you're exactly right.
Adam Jordan 12:29
I think about it that way, because here's how am I maybe this is simplistic. But I think if you're feeling good, and I mean that in like you're in a healthy space, you know, you're probably not going and doing these things and passing this legislation and getting so upset about all these things, you yourself are in a healthy place.
Scott Lee 12:49
When I'm working with teachers on trauma informed care, you know, we talk about Okay, wellness, feeling well,
Adam Jordan 12:56
right.
Scott Lee 12:57
Well, what does that look like when your students are well,
Adam Jordan 13:00
But if you're spending a good chunk of your day hollering at the principal about the teacher teaching, recruiting for the Communist Party, something's not well, you know, and I don't mean that as a joke. I mean, it's serious, like sometimes, and I think as a human being, you say, what's not well, and how do we fix that? You know, and maybe that's a simplistic way of thinking about things. That doesn't mean don't hold people accountable when they do terrible things. But it does mean you think of the complexity of the human brain and you say, well, what's not well with you? And what and how do we do that collectively? How do we fix some of these things?
Scott Lee 13:33
Once again, Adam, thank you so much for joining us today.
Adam Jordan 13:36
Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
Scott Lee 13:39
The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we help schools and youth organizations implement high quality, holistic and equitable interventions, please visit our website oncoursesolutions.n e t. We also encourage your support of Kay Blada Recycling, you can visit them at Kay-blada.com. This has been Episode One of the fall 2021 season. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about it either in person or using social media. We also greatly appreciate positive reviews on the podcast app you use. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is hosted and produced by R. Scott Lee who retains copyright. We encourage diverse opinions, however, opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of producer, partners, or underwriters. Guest was not compensated for appearance, nor did guest pay to appear. Transcripts are available following podcast publication at our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Sponsorship opportunities or other inquiries may be made on the "Contact Us" page at our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Please follow the thoughtful teacher podcast on twitter @drrscottlee Lee or on facebook at facebook.com thoughtful teacher podcast.
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