Talking with Students about Equity with Dr. Malcolm Gillard
In this episode Dr. Malcolm Gillard discusses equity and how to approach talking with students about equity in the classroom.
Malcolm is a veteran teacher, currently teaching in the Clark County, Nevada School District where he works with gifted students and advises teachers on implementing restorative practices. We will discuss these issues as well as an opinion article he published in Education Week titled “Do White People Get It?: Educators have a weighty responsibility to take on racism” (July 15, 2020), page 20.
Links
Teach Plus Nevada-the organization we discuss in the podcast
Malcolm’s Professional website
Transcript
Scott Lee 0:02
Greetings, friends and colleagues. Welcome to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee, I hope you are safe and well. Our guest today for this episode is Dr. Malcolm Gillard, a veteran classroom teacher in the Clark County Nevada School District. He has been a Nevada Teach Plus fellow and his publications include a July 2020 editorial published in Education Week focused on teachers and America's racial reckoning. We will discuss both of these as well as Malcolm's work with restorative practice in schools. Welcome to the thoughtful Teacher Podcast, Malcolm Gillard.
Malcolm Gillard 0:51
Thank you.
Scott Lee 0:52
First off, can you tell us where you teach and what you teach?
Malcolm Gillard 0:57
Okay, I teach for Clark County School District. And I am a gifted and talented education specialist.
Scott Lee 1:04
Clark County is Las Vegas for folks that may not know all the geography, tell us what you see is the key to motivating or reaching difficult students.
Malcolm Gillard 1:16
I believe that I know the key is just listening, listening to students, oftentimes, students are shut down from expressing themselves and revealing their true feelings. I found that providing students with an opportunity to be heard without judgment. It usually reveals the root of their behavior issues.
Scott Lee 1:39
I spend a lot of time working with teachers too. And the judgment and learning to listen without judgment is absolutely so important. So we're gonna discuss equity issues in a minute.
Malcolm Gillard 1:51
Scott, I think equity is I mean, I know he's going to talk about it in a minute, but I really wanted to touch on it now.
Scott Lee 1:58
Okay. Sure.
Malcolm Gillard 1:59
Equity is, is one of the major challenges on the school district. As far as I'm concerned. It is a equity is a gimme, right. But the due to politics, educators have to demand for the equity treatment of students of color. For example, the expulsion, suspension and behavior referral for Clark County School District, between the years 2014 and 2018. between students of color, and Caucasian students were disproportionate. Although black students made up the lowest percentage of enrollment, the the highest of the student population to be expelled and suspended. The same infractions committed by the white counterparts do did not result in the same punishment. So these type of inequities is detrimental to the future of students of color. It also contributes to the school to prison nexus
Scott Lee 3:01
pipeline. Yeah, and, and it's sad, because I know that that's something that I hear a lot. I want to get into a piece that you published an opinion piece you published in education week in June of 2020. Title of it was "Do White People Get It: Educators Have a Weighty Responsibility to Take on Racism". You mentioned that this editorial was in response to the killing of George Floyd in the aftermath, but you discuss another black man who was killed by a police officer, Philando Castile, and that this was a turning point for you. First off, can you remind us who Philando Castile was, and tell us why you connect with this incident inparticular?
Malcolm Gillard 3:48
Yes. Philando Castile was a 32 year old black man who was shot and killed by an officer on a traffic stop near St. Paul, Minnesota. One of the reasons why the Philando touched me so much is that the impact that he had on students at the school he worked for, okay. Over 400 students were affected by his death, and they admired him and they affectionately called him Mr. Phil. I read an article where of father of a 10 year old or 10 year old girl who had known this to feel since he she was in kindergarten, he thought he would never have to be confronted with such a conversation with his daughter. After telling her that Mr. Phil was killed, she sobbed and didn't understand why the police officer would hurt a man quote, "who had rainbows around his heart" end of quote. He was the nutrition supervisor for St. Paul School District. One of the things that really stood out for me is that he paid for the lunches of all the students who were in lunch debt. And still just that owed money, he wanted to make sure every child had a meal. And he just touched on, he touched many hearts, in his school community,
Scott Lee 5:22
We oftentimes, don't really think about the impact of everybody in the school community, you know, besides the other teachers and the importance of custodial staff, the nutrition staff, you know, one of the best mentors, that some students I had when I was teaching a few years ago was the custodian, [I] just can't emphasize enough when we talk about who people are, who are educators, you know, that's a, that's a big boat. And also, you know, the importance of the work that that he was doing, as well. In in your Education [Week] piece, you discuss a question that a 10 year old student asked you in class, what was the question that the student asked, and what happened?
Malcolm Gillard 6:11
Well, we know that George Floyd's depth was it was global news, and I didn't expect to have a conversation about George floor with my elementary school students. I just went to school as usual. But I was feeling I was feeling pretty heavy. My emotions are pretty heavy. We often underestimate children and their thought process. And they're innately curious about life. And they're also very intuitive. So at the beginning of class, one of the students asked another student, had he seen the news with a police officer killed a man, by knee and on him. Well, about, we were about to have class, and I saw that they were engaged. And that's one of teachers gifts when they when their kids are engaged in conversation, that's an issue and divided them anyway. I thought the engagement, constant engagement was initiated by the student. I didn't want to jump in or I thought, like, you know what, maybe this is not really appropriate. But then I thought, well, maybe it's perfect. They haven't dialogue that given her thoughts. They're, you know, looking at the the information that's there, as I continued to listen to the these are fifth graders, I've found that many of the students were aware of police violence against people of color. After about three minutes of thoughts and opinions of the students, one of the students asked me, Hey, Dr. Gillard, are you afraid that you might get shot by the police? I was I was taken aback by the question. But I knew that teaching my students to be forthright and honest, I had to do the staying sane. And I just simply said, Yes, I am. But then after that, I didn't really want to get into it. I want them to use the information that they had seen. I wanted them to come up with their own conclusion, or Yes, I am and why that was
Scott Lee 8:17
What particularly moved me about that piece. Is your comment. Also, about it was not so much that you were worried about you, as opposed to what your mother might have to go through if something like that happened to you as well. It is important, but sad also that this is these are conversations 10 year old students are having to, to have
Malcolm Gillard 8:46
Yeah, exactly.
Scott Lee 8:48
So I've been thinking about that situation. You know, and I've taught in schools that are both majority students of color and majority white, but because I am white, I'd never get asked a question like that by a student. I've got to rely if conversation comes up like that, you know, I've got to rely on experiences of friends of mine who are black and what they've told me. Sadly, this is an example of white privilege itself. What advice do you have for white teachers, particularly when we're talking about situations like this?
Malcolm Gillard 9:31
Honestly, Scott, I don't think giving advice to white teachers is the key. Okay. Where does that conversation began? I believe respectfully, I believe white people know that what black people face daily. The media is everyone's go to for everything. Social media. You know, Google, if a white teacher has a question about anything race related, they should ask. So it's not like I will come up and just start talking to you. Hey, let's talk about race.
Scott Lee 10:06
Right? Yeah. One of the things, you know, I think is important the conversation. You know, I don't think as a group, white people do a very good job of taking responsibility for, you know, "we need to have these conversations," too many avoided speaking, you know, of this issues around structural racism, do you find that educators in general feel safe talking to each other about race?
Malcolm Gillard 10:35
based on my experiences, I found that white educators become nonverbal. When, when racist the topic, I'm not sure why that is? Maybe it's, maybe they need time to process it. Maybe they feel what they have to say, maybe misinterpreted? I'm not sure.
Scott Lee 10:59
I have been involved in a couple of workshops around implicit bias. And, you know, I know it is difficult to encourage people to have, have those conversations. And that's part of the reason why I wanted to make sure when I saw your piece, I cut it out and saved it. Because I want these conversations to be held, I want people to be heard, that, that we need to encourage that to happen. And and to talk to people and understand and I would have a hard time of course, the student would never ask me some of the things that a student would ever ask you. And, you know, we have to we have to work through and process that. You call on educators to incorporate lessons on racism into the curriculum. What suggestions do you have there? And what do you see is as essential
Malcolm Gillard 11:55
For me, I don't think teaching lessons on racism is the key. I do think that presenting facts about how this country was established is important. It isn't arguable that this country was built on the stolen land of indigenous people and the stolen lives of African people. I think the lessons on I think a lesson on Critical Race Theory would be a great assets and teaching American history. There are a lot of people who are against including Critical Race Theory as a curriculum in school. Critical Race Theory is not about teaching hate, and racism. Critical Race Theory is an academic concept that is more than forty years old, on the core ideas that race is a social construct, and that racism is embedded in the legal system and policies. It is the system of ideas to explain something. I think, for me, if a teacher wants to talk about Critical Race Theory, or in a topic in Critical Race Theories. I think a question posed by these teachers should be how did America become rich? Why was there slavery? Why are black and brown men the highest population to be incarcerated? Questions like that allows students to research without educators providing possible changes in the facts of history. The more students learn, the more they can form their own ideas about any topic. I believe when students are spoon fed information, it is a disservice on building their cognitive ability. So asking students questions, and having them ask questions, will help to increase their love for learning.
Scott Lee 13:53
I love that you mentioned starting out with the question, one of the questions I used to ask my history students, and it was around this and this. This really was was a lesson and a question that I've that I asked students even before I had really heard of Critical Race Theory, you know, was Andrew Jackson, a war criminal? Now, I have my own opinion on it. I've stated it publiclt many times; I you know, the absolutely, he was. Letting students work that out on their own. One of the things that I think was was hugely important, you know, for helping students really get an understanding, because the examples are all there. And I live in a state that has now outlawed teaching of Critical Race Theory, but certainly, you can't look at history and argue that, well, there's not structural racism, and we've got to deal with that. One other thing that I'd like to ask about, if you could tell us a little bit about Teach Plus and what that organization does and what you're work was as a Teach Plus fellow.
Malcolm Gillard 15:03
Oh man Teach Plus, I think that was probably one of the greatest experiences I've had. I have had thus far. I work with some of the most amazing and talented educators. And I'm going to give a shout out to the Teach Plus Nevada team and a special heart emoji to a state director and Senior Policy Fellow. Dr. Tonia Holmes. Senior Policy Fellow and high school AP history instructor, Kenny Belknap, Senior Policy, fellow and high school English instructor, Laura Penrod, teaching Policy Fellow and high school English instructor and chair Deborah Whitt. And certainly this this individual has taught me so much we actually talk pretty often. She's also a teaching policy in fifth grade elementary school teacher, Shelia Weathers. This organization provides opportunities to provide excellent experienced and diverse teachers to take leadership over key policy and practice issues that advances equity, opportunity and student success. I was part of the restorative justice cohort with the individuals that I mentioned. And so, restorative justice is an alternative exclusionary discipline practices which remove students from the academic environment. Instead, restorative justice seeks to repair the harm done when a standard of conduct is violated. The ultimate goal of restorative justice approach often requires a culture shift for the entire school community. Educators must shift to see students as persons deserving have the opportunity to correct their wrongdoings and learn from their mistakes, rather than seeing them as children in need of reprimand. So this approach is rooted in providing positive relationships and behavior and helps to create a supportive environment where students can thrive personally, socially and academically.
Scott Lee 17:33
That's so interesting that you all focused on restorative practice, I had no idea. Because I have an ongoing series as part of this podcast. I'm always inviting people on to discuss restorative practice in schools. How is restorative practice changed how you teach?
Malcolm Gillard 17:54
Oh, what's really interesting for me is, I was doing a restorative justice, before I even knew what the actual name was. Because I found that, you know, students or children will be children, and you just have to guide them. And I think a lot of times, their dignity is stripped from them. When they're reprimanded or yelled at, or, or whatever the case may be. And just real quick, I had a parent that I had been working with, for a couple years, I had both her children, one of one of the students came up to me and asked, well told me that another student, a newer student, had slapped her in the face. And so what happened was, I went out, I got both sides of the story. And you know, we have a no tolerance of any type of hitting or violence. And so I had a conversation with the violator. The parent came up to me and say, Oh, my God, you are amazing. And I couldn't understand what she was saying. She says, you totally left this little girl with her dignity. She felt bad for what she did. But and, and then that's when I knew that's, that's that's the way to go. It's just innate. I mean, it's not something that I, you know, seek out. But it's just something that's innate.
Scott Lee 19:26
You know, I think it's, it's so hard. You know, when I started teaching, we were in a lot of ways taught not to do that. Not that it was used in these terms, but it was all about classroom management and classroom management techniques and you put down any type of interference with with with your lesson as if the lesson is mine and not the students'. Before things get out of hand and you "lose control" I'm doing air quotes around around "lose control" which nobody can see. So many teachers, whether it was intentional or not, received a message that the way you deal with students, oftentimes is a way in which you do take away their dignity.
Malcolm Gillard 20:16
Ah-huh right.
Scott Lee 20:17
And it's an it's very sad that those messages continue to pervade a lot of school cultures. Yeah. Great to find out about the restorative practice piece as well and your work with it. So that's exciting. Thank you for joining us on the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast.
Malcolm Gillard 20:37
Oh, the pleasure was all mine. I appreciate you, Scott. Thank you so much.
Scott Lee 20:42
The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we help schools and youth organizations, embed social emotional learning within their cultures, and implement high quality, holistic interventions, please visit our website, www.oncoursesolutions.net. This has been episode five of the fall 2021 season. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about it, either in person or using social media. We also greatly appreciate positive reviews on the podcast app you use. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is hosted and produced by R. Scott Lee who retains copyright. We encourage diverse opinions. However, opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of producer, partners, or underwriters. Guests are never compensated for appearance, nor do guests pay to appear. Transcripts are available following podcast publication at our website, thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Sponsorship opportunities or other inquiries may be made on the "Contact Us" page at our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Please follow the thoughtful Teacher Podcast on Twitter @drrscottlee
