Discussing Race and Gender in the Classroom with Mark Finchum
Executive Director of the Tennessee Council for the Social Studies and I discuss recent laws that limit discussion of equity, race, and gender issues by teachers. Tennessee was one of the first of several states have passed such laws. We talk about how this law may affect teachers, particularly social studies teachers, in Tennessee and elsewhere. As part of our discussion, mark shares some comments that have been shared with him by Tennessee social studies teachers.
Links
Tennessee Council for the Social Studies website
Chalkbeat article on law we discussed
Congressional Medal of Honor Society page for Sgt. Sammy Davis-mentioned by Mark in podcast
Transcript
Scott Lee 0:02
Greetings, friends and colleagues. Welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. I hope you are safe and well. Our guest for this episode is Dr. Mark Fincham, the executive director of the Tennessee Council for the Social Studies. Recently retired from teaching, Mark taught for 33 years in middle school, high school and community college, teaching history, geography and AP Human Geography. He is a former board member for the National Council for the Social Studies, where he has served on numerous committees and currently chairs the NCSS Indigenous Education Community. He has also advised publishing companies and the Tennessee State Museum. Our discussion focused on a 2021 law enacted in Tennessee that limits the ability of teachers to discuss racial and gender issues, as well as structural racism and similar topics. One of several states who have passed similar laws. Tennessee's law cuts funding to school districts if teachers are found to be in violation. We start off discussing the activities of the Tennessee Council for the Social Studies. Mark Fincham is the executive director of the Tennessee Council for the Social Studies. Thank you, Mark, for joining us today on the thoughtful Teacher Podcast.
Mark Finchum 1:38
Well, thank you for this opportunity. I appreciate it.
Scott Lee 1:41
Part of what we're going to talk about today deals with some recent legislation in Tennessee. But before we get into that, could you tell us a little bit about what the Tennessee Council for Social Studies is doing? And tell us a little bit about any upcoming events that you'd like to share?
Mark Finchum 2:00
Well, the Tennessee Council for the Social Studies is made up of about 400 members from all across the state of Tennessee, all grade levels from elementary, middle school, high school, college, and different content areas history, geography, sociology, anthropology, psychology, government, civics, and so forth. We are a state chapter of the National Council for the Social Studies, which has proximately 23,000 members nationwide and an international contingent as well, as far as what Tennessee counts for the Social Studies is doing. We have an annual conference, and this next one will be in February of 2022, will be held in Memphis. So we'd like to invite everybody to check that out, you could come to our website, which is simply t in social studies.org, sign up to become a member there, get on the mailing list, get us on Facebook and Twitter. And you can find the National Council at simply socialstudies.org. The National Council does a conference every year. And this one coming up in November will be in Minneapolis. And it'll be attended by somewhere around 3000 to 3500. Teachers from all across the country.
Scott Lee 3:19
Since the audience for this podcast is primarily teachers are familiar with the work of their colleagues don't want to spend a lot of time talking about what social studies and civics teachers do. Just briefly, if you could tell us a little bit about what you see as some of the biggest misconceptions about the work of social studies and civics teachers in general?
Mark Finchum 3:43
Well, I think the first thing I would say that's a major misconception. Social Studies, teachers do not simply teach dry facts. There are those out there in the general public, I believe, and maybe even in state legislature who thinks that's what we do, or that's what we're supposed to do. They don't understand about historians and the work historians do they don't understand about history teachers, and what we do. They think we teach facts like, you know, presidents and kings and battles and dates and wars and winners and losers. state capitals, national capitals, find his place on the map and that place on the map. Now a certain amount that's necessary as a background for all of what happens what am I friends says that history plays out on the geography stage. So you have to understand some of that. But you don't need to spend a lot of time on that in class because all you have to do is push a couple of buttons on your smartphone or your computer keyboard and you can find out the state capitol this that or the other, the national capitol, whatever. We don't spend much time in class studying dates, names and places. If that's going on in the classroom, then they're outdated. For sure. So I think a lot of people don't realize what we do beyond that. And I don't think people realize the relevance of social studies. And I don't think they realize how much it's been marginalized over the last few decades.
Scott Lee 5:13
You know, you mentioned the marginalization of the social studies and don't want to take anything away from STEM teachers, you know, and we've had several really good STEM teachers who have been guests on the podcast in the past. But it is a concerning, at least to me how much less is spent on STEM than on social studies. Not that we want to take away from STEM, but certainly advocate for more funding for social studies, but not at the expense of other content areas.
Mark Finchum 5:48
Let me just kind of point out two things, one, in general, I'd like for everybody to go and look at what is the mission statement for your school building, or your school system, most likely says nothing about math or science. But it very possibly says something about being good citizens. And I know that's the case for the school where I was about good citizens who are lifelong learners. So it may be something more generic than that. It may not say citizenship, but if it says anything, it says something like that. That's a social studies, content area. Let me mention to you something else, Charles Haines and Terry pickerel, who were part of the founding movement of the Civic missions in schools at a really good quote. And I first heard it from Sid gholston, who's past president of the National Council of Social Studies, and a good friend of mine, but here's, I want to give credit to the right place. But here's the quote, reading and math are important, very important. But if we care about the health of our nation, then we must be more concerned about what kind of citizens do the math and read the books. So if you've kept up with politics, and I'm not just limiting myself to the last four years, but in general, you have to understand the need for civics, because we can't seem to have a town hall meeting that runs the way it's supposed to. And what went on with the state legislature and Dennis state, that was not the way law should be passed, you know, if I were teaching a government class, and I said, you know, these laws were passed, with no more than two days in discussion, no expert witnesses, no outside testimony, no foundation in facts, or if there is they didn't present it, then that's not the way to run a democracy. That's not how government should work. Now, obviously, sometimes that's way it works. But that is not the way it should work.
Scott Lee 7:53
And we'll get into the issues about critical race theory and structural racism in just a minute, which, incidentally, did get passed. You're right, in two days, with no hearings. But it wasn't just that several of the laws are that the Tennessee State Legislature passed this past year. And this is not exclusive to Tennessee, a lot of states, similar things happened. One in particular that I'm thinking of is there was an I don't know the House bill, Senate Bill number, but it did passed it was signed, allow parents to opt students out of any discussion about transgender LGTBQ+ plus rights issues in schools, and you've got to give 30 days notice. And I send a lengthy email to my own legislator about that issue, specifically saying, you know, I used to be a school administrator. What do I do if I've got a student who's being bullied over potential issue of that involves LGBTQ plus issues? Do I have to wait 30 days to discipline the student before I can talk to him about him and questions about that? And of course, I didn't get an answer. And the problem was not so much that I didn't get an answer. But I'm sitting there thinking nobody actually appeared in front of a committee to ask that question, either. I find that very concerning. What are your thoughts on how government is running and should be running? We're already getting away from topic but I still think it's important.
Mark Finchum 9:45
Well, one of the things to consider is the timing of it. Some of these laws that CRT and such came along at the very end, which is felt during the time that teachers across the state with some variation are ready wrapping up the school year, they're doing their AP, national exams, or they're doing their Tennready [state tests] end the year courses, tests and so forth. And that's one of the busier times of the year for a teacher, all times are pretty busy, except maybe fall break or spring break. And those tend to be busy sometimes, with teachers trying to improve by taking classes and doing different things. But it's at a time when it would be extremely difficult for teachers to do a whole lot. I think one of the things I'm hoping to see happen with Tennessee Council of Social Studies, and we'll discuss it at our next board meeting is being proactive, and binding to ask our board to make a committee that will work on advocacy. And we'll be in touch with administrators, legislators and state capitol to say, what's coming up, but what can we do, because it's hard to deal with something, when you don't know about it, it's hard to deal with anything when it happens, you know, almost overnight. And if a friend of mine hadn't contacted me, I don't think I would have known about it. And when I found out about it, I started sharing it with the executive board for tcss. And to try to have time to do anything about it, there just wasn't. And so I want to be more proactive with our organization, I hope anybody else who's involved in education will do the same thing and be proactive and start immediately within getting in touch with their representatives. It didn't have to be after the session begins next time around. But go ahead, let them know that if there's something coming up that has to do with education in general, social studies, in particular, anything else get in touch with me. And you know, if I do that, or some of our executive board members do that, we can then in turn, not just say what we individually might think. But we can check with other members of the Executive Board, and then go on to the board of directors and go to the membership and get input on it, which we did that but it was too late to know, to be able to have any effect on this particular bill.
Scott Lee 12:04
Yeah, so let's, let's talk about that bill, in particular, Tennessee, along with several other states, potentially as many as 15. At the last count, although that may be different by the time that this airs. Recently, Tennessee passed a law and as we already mentioned, without having committee hearings, and at a time when teachers were distracted, doing their jobs, and this law limits or outlaws discussion of topics related to Critical Race Theory, do need dimension. Critical Race Theory itself is not mentioned specifically in the law. TCSS, along with many other professional organizations has taken a position on this. So first off, what is the position specifically? And then let's talk a little bit more about advocacy.
Mark Finchum 12:54
Well, let me just quote a little bit from the TCSS statement that the executive board put together and then shared with the membership. Here's a couple of quotes that I think summarize what it's all about. "This bill de legitimizes the teaching profession by calling into question teachers academic qualifications, and pedagogical decision making, to build perpetuates a misunderstanding of what practices occur in Tennessee public schools, and what constitutes history and social studies education by conveying the notion that teachers present only static facts about the past. While we know about the past is only known to us through the interpretation of evidence, which is an extension of the imperfect individuals who have limited perspectives, biases and prejudices. By censuring the comprehensive history, social science education that is required as students, this bill will hinder social studies educators work to produce students who can master historical thinking skills, and evaluate multiple perspectives in order to be productive, responsible and competent citizens in our diverse and democratic society." That's the gist of what TCSS has to say, and that coincides well with what the National Council of Social Studies also has had to say.
Scott Lee 14:20
Let's be clear that that just because a teacher discusses structural racism, for example, or the privilege status, my opinion, this has been settled science for years, structural racism exists in our society. And it's almost like climate change. It's just about impossible to argue that it doesn't exist because it's example after example, after example, it being there. You're going into specific examples, hours and hours and hours, but it's there. Teachers or not our social studies teachers and for that matter, other content area teachers as well, just because they say that exists doesn't somehow mean that we're indoctrinating kids. That just means we're opening a discussion about something, that we've got facts that demonstrate that this is the case.
Mark Finchum 15:19
Well, wouldn't we do that survey that TCSS did a members, I've pulled a quote out of that, that I'd like to share right here that I think really fits what you're saying, I don't know what his teacher is, east, or middle, or west Tennessee. Oh, I don't know if it's male or female. Just know high school teacher now become obvious. But here's the quote, "I see this bill impacting nearly every course I teach, from looking specifically at race as a social construct, and racial inequality in my sociology elective to teaching historically, then select the Atlantic slave trade at apartheid in my world history class, to discussions of gentrification blockbusting and redlining in my AP Human Geography class, race is a part of our social studies curriculum." And that teacher ended that statement with an exclamation point. And so I thought that was very appropriate to mention there is, it's going to impact to some degree in some way, teachers in history class, whether that be elementary, middle school, high school, whether that be geography class, whether that be sociology class, anything that social studies, government civics, it's going to be there. And when you look at these, this thread of racism, it runs from the beginning, whether you call the beginning, 1619, or 1776, or East Tennessee and 1540, with DeSoto, coming through, or whichever you want to call the beginning of this country, it's been there, and it's still there. And whether it's because there's some bad apples in a bunch whether or not, but bad apples, you know, in that barrel from 1540, or whenever you want to start 1492. And you cannot discuss the country's history without touching on things that make people uncomfortable. And if you are not making people uncomfortable, maybe you're not doing it, right. That doesn't mean that's your goal, to make somebody uncomfortable. You know, it's my wife does lots of lots of research on genealogy. She has something above 70,000 names now in her database. And some of those people, she's proud of some not so much. I know in my family tree, there was one man who was really, really, really poor. so poor that when he was going to get married, his future mother in law was opposed to it. She told her daughter, if you marry Bill, you'll have to cut if you cut your finger, you'll have to come home just get a ride tied up with to help all of us. So I cannot be ashamed of that. Any more than I can be proud of some ancestor. I'm not responsible for that none of us are, we're responsible for what we do about it. So we're not responsible for the fact that, you know, we as in any individual today, regardless of your ethnicity, or background at any stored economic or socio, you're not responsible for the removal of the Cherokee, you're not responsible for blocking the door of the school when an African American student wanted to enroll, but you are responsible for what you do yourself. And are you helping the situation be better or not. And so you cannot do much to make the situation better if you do not understand this situation. And you can't understand current events, unless you understand the history behind them. That's why in social studies, you know, the big theme of cause and effect. If you don't understand it, well, you're not much of a citizen. Let's just say that
Scott Lee 19:00
You mentioned the word uncomfortable. And that is, to me, one of the most concerning parts of well, there's a lot of concerning parts the way the law is written. But literally, the law says that a student can't be made to feel uncomfortable, whatever that means. And I you know, I sometimes want to think about it. You know, a basketball coach when I coached basketball, the way to teach kids, students, athletes, in this case, to be successful, sometimes required a little bit of discomfort, even something simple, like free throws, well, it's not comfortable to shoot 500 free throws. If you do that, you'll probably get better.
Mark Finchum 19:45
Right. And the intention is not to make anybody feel bad if that's the teacher's intention, he or she needs to find another occupation. And the sooner the better. Your intention needs to be to help kids and I say kids that I've taught community college people, you know, older me, I still tell, let's call you, my kids if I've ever had you in class, but you want your kids to understand how things were? And what does that have to do with today, you don't want to make them uncomfortable. But if it happens, you know, then you deal with it in an appropriate manner. And one way to avoid that, of course, is always being open and honest, but also grade level specific in terms of being developmentally appropriate. You know, there are things you might do. ninth graders, you wouldn't do it fourth grade, not out there to make anybody uncomfortable. But if you can read everything that's been done by this group, or that group against the other group, and not feel like Well, that wasn't right. You know, there's some things that are just wrong. I know, I hear some people saying that, Well, you got to look at things through the eyes of the time. And I understand that concept. But let's think about that for a minute. Is that really true, though? Because, you know, we talk about slavery, and that, you know, Andrew Jackson had a lot of slaves and looking at it through the eyes of that time period. You know, it was common practice for a lot of folks. Yes. But during that time period, there was also Abolition movements going up. And so when you talk about the removal, you know, the Trail of Tears is it's commonly called a lot of people say, "Well, you know, that was kind of the time that they lived in." People like David Crockett, where it was against and spoke up in Congress, right, Daniel Webster was against it.
Scott Lee 21:34
And the Supreme Court was, was against it.
Mark Finchum 21:38
Yeah. So when you talk about looking through the eyes of the time, remember that there's more than one set of eyes at any given point in history. So it may have been harder for somebody to see the problem of slavery, but I'm not sure it was. I've read some of Thomas Jefferson's work and works about Thomas Jefferson, to some degree, at least he struggled with the issue, George Washington struggling with the issue. So if somebody at the time is struggling with the issue, they are uncomfortable with the issue. And so that's clear that there are two perspectives, at least two, two sets of eyes, or more on any given topic. So let's don't let's don't overlook that when we talk about time periods, and how to look at things and don't look through 21st century glasses. That's only useful up to a point,
Scott Lee 22:26
That's just so well said. It is sometimes hard to remember, these were all things that were even that were being debated, even then, even by people who, you know, came down really on the wrong side. Ultimately, they could not have known one more thing that I want to talk about this bill, in the little bit of time that we have left this bill, it doesn't do much good to say what the title was, because the title of the bill had nothing to do with with the issues of structural racism. This was strictly an amendment that was added at the last minute. But it takes effect for the 20221-2022 school year. Do not have any rules from the State Department of Education yet, we understand that those are forthcoming, at least at the time that we are recording this. What considerations do you think teachers need to be making, as they think about starting the school year, when we actually will air this podcast?
Mark Finchum 23:27
That's a good question. And I think I may go back to answer that to one of the other quotes that came to TCSS. When we did this survey, we asked teachers if they thought it would greatly affect their teaching or slightly or not sure, likely not, or Definitely not. 39% said it was greatly Yes, but not greatly, just slightly as another 22%. So you've got basically 60% of our respondents saying it was going to have an impact. And here's what one teacher said. And this is a quote, "I now find myself in danger of breaking the law for telling the truth. However, I have the duty to speak truth to power. And if I must pay a cost to do so, then it shall be so." I think I might like to use that code to answer your question. Teachers, I would encourage you to be prepared to teach accurately, fairly and consistently, which is basically what you're doing. Anyway. Beyond that, look and see whatever guidelines that Tennessee Department of Education is going to come up with, I'm sure glad that's not my responsibility, as you know, and anybody else who's looked at this law, and I've looked at and just shaking my head two or three dozen times, is so vague. You don't know if you're breaking the law or not. Really, you've already done it. And who's going to know if you did I know there was one story I read where a group, I want to think it's in Nevada suggested body cams on teachers. Are you kidding me? But I've seen enough to know No, that's, that's what you're thinking. Hopefully Tennessee knows better than that, but I'm not gonna make any promises. What does it mean to break the law? What are the consequences? It says, you know, withhold funding? Yeah, what funding? How much funding for how long? And are there any opportunities for redress? You know, if the state thinks I did something, and I don't think I did, is there a system for discussing that and appealing that decision? How many people is it going to take to do this, you know, it's going to take up time on the State Board of Education, the State Department of Education is my local superintendent, or director of schools going to have to hire staff for it? And if so, who's gonna pay for it? Who knows? This could be one of those things that scares teachers. And some of what I read indicates that there are teachers who are scared, who are gonna pull back from trying to do anything that they feel that they should do, and just go back to something very basic. There's going to be some teachers who are, you know, going to forge ahead, there's just, there's just no answer to what's going to happen. We just need to be prepared and be ready to do what's right. It's one of the things I got to hear from Sergeant Sammy Davis, a couple of weeks ago, Medal of Honor recipient, went to an Teacher Institute on the Vietnam War. And he told us, he said, teachers are my heroes. And I think all 38 of us in the room got a lump in their throat to have a decorated Medal of Honor recipient stand up in front of us and tell us, we were his heroes. And he said, Do what is right in your heart, and what is best will rise to the surface. Let's do what Sergeant Davis said. Let's do what we know is right. In our heart. Yes, he wrote a book called, you don't lose until you stop trying. And so I think that is apropos for this conversation for teachers in general. And it's a good book to read tells about his life growing up his experiences in Vietnam, and what he's done since then, and by the way, if you've seen the movie Forrest Gump, the part about the Vietnam War, is based on Sammy's story.
Scott Lee 27:32
I did know that there was nothing in the actual book in Winston Graham's book, Forrest Gump about the Vietnam War. It ended before that. So that's interesting. I did not know that. Thank you very much, Mark. I've enjoyed our conversation did thank you for appearing today, and best wishes to you.
Mark Finchum 27:52
Thank you very much. I've enjoyed it, I'd appreciate the opportunity.
Scott Lee 27:57
The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we help schools and youth organizations implement high quality, holistic and equitable interventions, please visit our website www.oncoursesolutions.net. This has been episode four of the fall 2021 season. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about it either in person or using social media. We also greatly appreciate positive reviews on the podcast app you use. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is hosted and produced by R. Scott Lee who retains copyright. We encourage diverse opinions. However, opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of producer, partners, or underwriters. Guests are never compensated for appearance, nor do guests pay to appear. Transcripts are available following podcast publication at our website, thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Sponsorship opportunities or other enquiries may be made on the "Contact Us" page at our websitetThoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Please follow the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast on Twitter @drrscottlee
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