Our Kids Want to Have Difficult Conversations with Matthew Hawn
Matthew Hawn used to be a social studies teacher until he was fired. He had his day in court and won, but instead of being reinstated the school board appealed. In this conversation, Matt shares his story, his thoughts on teaching controversial issues and how the community and particularly his former students have reacted. Despite many setbacks, he continues to be optimistic about the future and his desire to return to the classroom.
Additional Links
Ta-Nehisis Coates official website
Background on “The First White President” by Ta-Nehisi Coates from History News Network
Peggy McIntosh website at Wellesley College Centers for Women
Peggy McIntosh “White Privilege”
Slate interview with Kyla Jenee Lacey as she discusses Matthew Hawn’s firing-includes a video of her poem
Transcript
Scott Lee: Greetings friends and colleagues, welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educator’s thought partner-a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and education organizations please visit our website at www.oncoursesolutions.net and reach out.
In this episode I am sharing a conversation with Matthew Hawn. Matt taught several different social studies courses and coached for over 16 years in the Sullivan County Schools in Tennessee, until he was dismissed after discussing racism and white privilege in his high school contemporary issues class. We’ll talk about his dismissal and the press coverage shortly, but what I think you will really find uplifting is how he continues to remain upbeat and positive despite the career setbacks he has faced. We will also discuss how many of his now former students have supported Matt, speaking on his behalf in the media, to their school board and even in court.
Welcome Matt to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast.
Mattew Hawn: Hi Scott. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Scott Lee: So first off, tell us just a little bit about your teaching background and why you decided that you wanted to become a teacher.
Mattew Hawn: So I taught for 16 years in the Sullivan County Tennessee school system, which is in the very northeast corner of Tennessee in the Appalachian Mountains.
I taught at a place called Sullivan Central High School. And I taught social studies. And in those 16 years I taught economics primarily and then I taught a class called contemporary issues I taught a history of rock and roll class, which was really cool.
Scott Lee: Oh, I bet.
Matthew Hawn: that was really fun. And the state mandated that all Tennessee high school students have a personal finance class. I was able to teach that too.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: And I taught world history. Yeah. I almost forgot about that. So, I was able to move around to different things and not be stuck in one class for a decade and a half. So that was nice.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: I graduated from Sullivan North High School, which is in the same system where I teach and, I knew early on that I wanted to be a teacher. And I think it's because the impact, you know, like we hear a lot of times whenever we talk to doctors or lawyers or pipe fitters or whoever it may be, there was a teacher that impacted them and got them going down that path for, for that particular profession or occupation.
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Hawn: And I think, for my kindergarten through 12th grade. I had teachers at every level that, that made an impact on me. I was very fortunate to grow up here and attend public school in Sullivan County. I graduated in 1996 and I went to Tennessee Tech University and I majored in everything but education.
My dad told me that, teachers have beer pocketbooks and “you have champagne taste: so, a teacher might not be the best profession for you.” And so, I, I graduated with a degree in, in finance only because my best friend, that's what he was doing. And so, I chose that. And maybe we had watched Wall Street or something, I can't really remember, but, I did not like it. I didn't give the very best effort, in those classes. I did enjoy the economic side of it.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: After I graduated, I went back and got my teacher certification in seventh through 12 history. I wanted to be, a history teacher, and a baseball coach and in 2005 I was hired by Sullivan County Schools to, to do that. I, I was hired to teach economics and, I was hired the week before school started…
Scott Lee: Oh, so you got an early start.
Mattew Hawn: I got an early start, right? Yeah. I was able to go in and get everything prepared for the year.
Scott Lee: I only mentioned that 'cause several times, I got hired either the last day of in-service or even after school started a couple of times, so yeah.
Mattew Hawn: Yeah. You come in swimming, and then, they made me a football coach. And I, I was practicing football a, a sport that I had never played. I was an athlete, but I had never played football. And then I also coached baseball. And
Scott Lee: Oh, wow.
Matthew Hawn: And so I was a, social studies teacher and a baseball coach.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm. Then something happened recently and I just want to, set it up a little bit to say that something happened to you, a situation occurred to you, and it's really the thing that almost all teachers, especially social studies, teachers, fear happening to them. And it happened to you. Tell us a little bit about, this event and, what precipitated it and what you can tell about it?
Mattew Hawn: So in the school year 2020 and 2021, that was a covid year.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: And, we began the year in the fall of 2020, completely virtual. Then we came back hybrid for about two or three weeks, and then we went back to virtual learning. And, during that time we were hybrid the events in Kenosha, Wisconsin happened where police shot Jacob Blake in the back seven times. And then Kyle Rittenhouse travels across state and kills two people and injures some more.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: On the way to school that morning, I thought, “well, we have to talk about this.” And I made the statement that “white privilege is a fact” and we were uploading…
Scott Lee: Which is, which is an evidence-based state…, I mean, strongly evidence based.
Mattew Hawn: Yes. It's a settled issue. Yes. And so that's not something I, I typically do. And, and this was in a contemporary issues class,
Scott Lee: right?
Mattew Hawn: I don't make declarations like that. I let the students go and investigate and then we come together at the end and determine as a class, whether or not something is a fact. And we were recording our lessons and I accidentally uploaded that class to a personal finance [class]. And so, whenever my personal finance students watched the recording of that class, they got my contemporary issues.
And some parents heard me say that “white privilege is a fact,” and they called the central office and complained. I immediately took that lecture down and apologized. And because they were right. I mean, I, I shouldn't be talking about contemporary issues in personal finance.
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: And, soon after that, we went back to, to 100% virtual learning. And it's been my experience in teaching this class that those kinds of conversations need to happen in person; at least then, I'm sure now maybe people have figured out how to have those conversations, virtually. But that, that was the Environment for, for all of us, really? For a lot of us anyway.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: I didn't know how to teach that, right? Teach racism in the United States virtually. So, I, I explained to my principal that it was just a mistake, me uploading the wrong class.
And nothing was said or done about it. I did get an email from our director of curriculum and instruction, he, he said, “Statements like this is a fact. Don't encourage classroom discussion. And it denies students access to varying points of view.” And I just responded, “Okay, I understand.”
We're moving on. I'll come back to this later on. And then we, we come back in the spring and January the Sixth happens, and I didn't have a lesson plan for insurrectionists trying to overthrow the United States government.
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: And, and so while I was trying to work on that, I thought, “Well, we could look at the 2016 election.” Because eventually it was gonna play in to what happened on, on January the Sixth, and I assigned an article by Ta-Nehisi Coates entitled “The First White President.” And we had a discussion about the 2016 election because it was historic.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: We talked about Russian interference. We talked about the Clinton campaign's, lack of, campaign events in Michigan and Wisconsin and Ohio. We talked about people believe what Trump says, you know?
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Hawn: We talked about all those things and in the period of a lesson, we're gonna talk about each of those things at least once.
Scott Lee: Sure.
Mattew Hawn: But whenever I sent the article home, or I put it online, a parent called in and complained. And I took the article down. I was told to move off that lesson to drop it completely, which I did. And then about a month later, on February the third, I was given a, a written reprimand. And, it once again said that I'd denied students access to varying points of view.
And so, I challenged the reprimand.
In the reprimand, it included two statements that I had supposedly made or allegedly made, which was not true. I did not say those things.
I wasn't given due process. Like no one brought me in to talk to me about the Ta-Nehisi Coates article.
Scott Lee: Yeah, and I think it's, it's worth noting, I don't want to stop you just want to briefly interject. In the contemporary issues standards, and this is from the Tennessee standards as a contemporary issues teacher, you are required to use primary sources and, they should focus quote, “on inquiry skills to examine the issues that impact the contemporary world” end quote. So, you were within the standards, right?
Matthew Hawn: Yeah.
Scott Lee: I just wanted to, throw that in.
Mattew Hawn: A lot of people have a misconception about what we do in social studies classes, and especially classes like this.
I mean, we talk about some very difficult subjects and I am not an expert. Any of those things. If an issue comes up in education, then yes, I feel like I'm qualified to talk about it most of the time. But whenever we talk about climate change or Me Too, or L-G-B-T-Q IA issues, or we talk about racism or problems in the Middle East or whatever the case may be, I don't stand up in front of the class and lecture. Right. And, and give them what I think are the issues. I, I bring in experts and let the students read through them, and then we come back and, and, and debate and analyze and evaluate those experts.
But on March the fourth or March the third, I went in front of the school board, appealed the reprimand and I lost seven to zero or six to zero with one abstention. And then, later on in the semester, they said that the, the Coates article had some inappropriate language, which he quoted the president and his chief of staff.
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: Is the problem with the language and far be it for me to, to mark out the words of someone like Ta-Nehisi Coates.
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: He has those words in there for a reason.
Scott Lee: Right? And, and your students are not second or third graders. These are high school students? Mostly juniors and seniors probably, correct?
Mattew Hawn: Yes. They, they're mostly juniors and seniors. And so, we, we move on through the semester and in April, the Derek Chauvin trial is happening and we're watching it live, like literally watching the, the trial happen live in class, and then we're discussing it.
And one of the students brought up white privilege and just the teacher instinct in me just kicked in and said, “well, what is that?” We had a discussion about white privilege and we read Peggy McIntosh's “Exposing the Invisible Knapsack” and then we watched a poem by the poet Kyla Jenee Lacey entitled “White Privilege.”
And there are six curse words in that poem, and I tried to mute them and I missed three or four of them. So, the students heard three or four curse words. And we had a great discussion and we had a great couple days of discussing what privilege is and, and what constitutes privilege.
And these are how, these experts define it. In what areas do you have privilege or do we all have privilege? And so, I guess someone complained about that poem and I, I went in and talked with my principal and the superintendent and, and a few other central office employees. And I explained to them what I was doing in that class. And then a week later on May the fifth 2021 the superintendent handed me dismissal papers. I… That happened that afternoon and that morning, that's when the state of Tennessee's general Assembly passed its quote unquote “divisive concepts” legislation.
Scott Lee: Yes.
Matthew Hawn: So that legislation passed in the morning,
Scott Lee: which was, which? Which was done literally over in an overnight, overnight session. Overnight.
Matthew Hawn: Right.
Scott Lee: Without having any committee hearings even.
Mattew Hawn: Right. And any, any public comment or, or any of that. Correct.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: Which is not exactly how a democracy is supposed to work, but that's a, that's another, that's another podcast.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Hawn: And so, I've been fighting to get my job back ever since because I'm a Tennessee teacher, and I have tenure. The tenure law affords me a three-step appeals process. The first appeal happened in August of 2021. It was a three-day hearing and the impartial hearing officer sided with the school board in that they, he upheld my dismissal.
The second appeal was back in front of the Sullivan County School Board who upheld the impartial hearing officer's decision to,
Scott Lee: mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: Dismiss me. And then the third step, it, it took us a while to get there, that second appeal in front of the school board happened on December 14th, 2021. The third step in the appeals process is, a hearing in front of the, the county chancellor. And that didn't happen for me until August 26th, 2024.
Scott Lee: So, so roughly three years? I was about to say. Let's make clear the time period. So yeah, it was definitely three school years.
Mattew Hawn: Three school years, definitely. And, and the, the chancellor sided with me.
In her decision, she said, the school board charged me with being unprofessional and insubordinate. She said I did neither of those things and that even if something I did was unprofessional or insubordinate, it still wouldn't have risen to the level of a dismissal.
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: And, we received that decision about a week before Christmas.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: In mid-December [2024]. And that felt really good just to be vindicated…
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Hawn: And win because for three years people had upheld the dismissal.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: And those were a long, tough three years. But on January the second, 2025, the school board had a special meeting.
Before their monthly school board public meeting, and they voted to appeal the chancellor's decision. And so now, we are waiting on this appeal to happen in front of the East Tennessee Court of Appeals in Knoxville, Tennessee. And my lawyer said this next step in the appeals process could take 18 to 24 months. So, we're maybe looking at another two years.
Scott Lee: I just want to note that we're recording in February of 2025, so about, it was about five weeks ago that, the Sullivan County School Board decided to appeal the chancellery court decision, that you won?
Matthew Hawn: Yes. Yeah.
Scott Lee: One thing that I want to make sure, that we also say is that you were dismissed over insubordination, not the divisive issue law, correct?
Matthew Hawn: Yes, correct.
Scott Lee: Which we've done a couple of other episodes about that particular law.
Mattew Hawn: That law was passed on the morning of May 5th. But I was fired for violating the teacher code of ethics and not giving students access to varying viewpoints. And then they said that I continued to deny students access to varying viewpoints throughout the 2020-2021 school year related to white privilege, which is insubordination.
And then, the unprofessionalism was the language in the Ta-Nehisi Coates piece and the Kyla Jennee Lacey poem.
Scott Lee: Okay we don't want, educators to think they need to hide in the dark by any stretch, but do you have any practical suggestions for teachers that you think they need, they should be taking to avoid running into a situation like yours?
Mattew Hawn: Yeah, I think, if they have a question about whether something is quote unquote “divisive” seek out an administrator and then document those conversations. So, if you talk to administrator in the hall and you have a conversation about a, a lesson you wanted to do on Jim Crow, well then follow that up with an email that summarizes the conversation that you had. So, there is something on record.
If possible, have someone there with you who can corroborate, what was said during the conversation. I, I think those are two practical things that teachers really need to be mindful of these days. And look it's very easy to get depressed or, or get uneasy…it's very easy to get, melancholy about what's happening.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew Hawn: In this educational world. But I tend to be an optimist a little bit. The TEA has filed suit in federal court against the state of Tennessee, challenging that divisive concepts legislation.
Scott Lee: And, and, and we should say TEA is Tennessee Education Association.
Mattew Hawn: Yeah. The National Education association affiliate. And yes, they are in court over that as we speak.
Scott Lee: Yeah.
Matthew Hawn: They're challenging it on the vagueness concept that a law can't be vague, which
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: This clearly is and then I think teachers have been, and education has been pushed around all over the country for a, for a long time.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: And I, I, I truly believe this, that once we've had enough that we're gonna stand up and fight back and say, “we are tired of you all interfering in the education of our students.”
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: And, and hurting our students. And so, when that happens and teachers realize that the power that they have, that they are one of the largest voting blocks in the country.
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: Then I, I, I think things are gonna change. We're gonna have to get over the, the shock and awe of, of what's happening and, and then start to stand up and fight back as a group, you know?
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: It, it can't be a single individual fighting these battles because as a single individual who is battling a county school board for a job, it is very difficult.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: Being by yourself. Now the TEA is, providing legal services for me, but teachers didn't come out and support me at those public hearings back in 2021 because they were afraid.
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: And my teacher friends didn't. Because they were afraid.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: And, look, I, they, they have their own lives to worry about. I'm not gonna judge them for that, but it was very lonely sitting there.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: Just being one of the only teachers there.
Scott Lee: Right. And you've had to go get a different job even though you have had legal help, even though the chancellor ordered back pay for you while you're in appeals, you're not going, that's not going to happen now for, as you've pointed out, another probably two years right? You know, so, you've, you've definitely had to make some sacrifices.
Mattew Hawn: Yeah. I mean it's been three and a half years without my teaching job of, of 16 years.
Scott Lee: Right.
Matthew Hawn: So, the job that I have now, I've had to start over. One of the great things about working for Sullivan County is that we had a great benefits plan.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: And I. I've had to pay throughout part of this time. Prior to my job, now, I had to pay 100% of my premiums
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: To keep my health insurance.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And one of the things that we should always remember is that, this is not just about social studies teachers. Science teachers can get into trouble now for teaching climate change. Again, settled science. I could see some of the same materials you were using an English teacher wanting to use.
Matthew Hawn: Right.
Scott Lee: So, when we talk about these things and we talk about how this affects teachers, it really does, it has the potential to affect us all, not just social studies teachers.
Mattew Hawn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. There's a teacher in South Carolina who was facing disciplinary action for assigning the Ta-Nehisi Coates book Between the World and Me. We could, like you said, go after settled science with vaccinations, right? I mean, if we remember all the, the uproar we had about masks and, and those things.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: So, it's a very difficult time to be a teacher right now.
Scott Lee: Yeah, let's go a little bit deeper because you've described yourself as an anti-racist teacher in the past. First off, why, and then what kinds of actions, should an anti-racist teacher take?
Mattew Hawn: Well, we all want our kids to leave our classroom and be better than they were before they came in. And speaking strictly for the area that I'm in, I grew up the same way these kids did.
And, I was a racist little kid. I was homophobic. I was misogynistic. I'm very disappointed in 17 and 18-year-old Matt Hawn. And so, I, whenever these kids come into my classroom and something in the world happens with relation to race in the world or the United States, that is something that we've talked about every semester, and I think it's important for my students to hear those varying perspectives, those black perspectives, because that's something they don't get.
Living in northeast Tennessee, Northeast Tennessee is 96% white. It's mostly conservative and mostly evangelical, and there's nothing wrong with that. But on a day-to-day basis, my students aren't exposed to Ibram Kendi or Ta-Nahisi Coates or Kyla Jennee Lacey. So, I think just by exposing my students to their perspectives and allowing them to evaluate and analyze and discuss and debate one another about those things, I think that is being an anti-racist teacher for where I am.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: Because the kids that I talk to, most of my classes are 99, sometimes a hundred percent white. And we are all coming from a similar background and whenever they get to my class, a lot of students have reached out over these last three years and they've said, “Coach Hawn, your class was the first time that I heard the perspective of minority people.”
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Mattew Hawn: In the world. And, and, and I think that's important for them. And I, I don't expect them to agree with Ta-Nehisi Coates or Kyla Jennee Lacey at 17 years old because I know that Matt Hawn at 17 would not have
Scott Lee: Right.
Mattew Hawn: But it just plants a seed. So, whenever they get out in the world and they meet people who've experienced some of the same things, they'll have heard that before and be a more active listener whenever they discuss and talk and talk with those people.
Scott Lee: The way I originally found out about your story was, was literally through the media, through the news. I've read several news articles about what has happened to you over the last three years now. Almost every news article has included comments from either at the time, current students or now former students. And we're talking at least a couple dozen students that have been interviewed. Talking about you and there's a strong consensus that the students felt a sense of belonging in your class and that the classes were still academically rigorous. Tell us, about some of your students and what you're hearing from them now.
Mattew Hawn: Yeah. Um. Look, one of the things that's helped get me through this whole ordeal has been focusing on opportunities because there, there are opportunities in trauma and, and as teachers, we very, very rarely get to run into former students and hear them talk about the impact that you made on their life. Whenever we run into them, out in the grocery store, at the gas station, at the, “hi, hello, how are you? What are you doing now?” And that's about the extent of the conversation. But because of this ordeal we had, I think 16 students testify at the August hearing.
And then like you said, there's been students who've also conducted interviews in the media and one of the opportunities with this whole thing is that I've gotten to hear. some of the things my students have learned about, learned from my class.
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: And the impact that I've gotten to make on them or that I made on them. And that's been a beautiful, beautiful thing. There was a student who, I think it was… the French were, were having a parade and they were, having tanks and military procession down one of the main roads in Paris, right? Or, or whatever. And I had a student ask, “why don't we do that in the United States?” And I said, “well that's a longstanding tradition for, for that country. But that's typically something done by dictators like you see in communist Russia or in Nazi Germany or in North Korea today.”
Scott Lee: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Hawn: “And that's just something that we typically don't do here in the United States.” And that kid called me, I, everything. But a good teacher, he called me a “liberal snowflake.” Um, and he got really mad with me and got upset, and I just stayed calm because I'd been teaching for a, if, if that were a younger teacher, I might have gotten back with him a little bit.
But he got up and walked out of the class, and then he came back in the next day and he, he had thought about what I said. He was like, “you know, you're right.” And I said, “well, what did you learn?” And he said, “that's just something that, that the United States has never done. We've never shown our military force at home really, unless it's a, a local parade or something. And that money.” And then he said, “you know, we could use that money to, to help disabled veterans or something.” And I said, “well, that's great. That's you, you learned something.”
Scott Lee: That's, that's great.
Matthew Hawn: And then, there's been a lot of other students who have just talked about they learned to listen to people with a different perspective from their own and, and learn to appreciate that other perspective and that other viewpoint. And, and that's been one of the points of the whole class even, right?
What the state mandates is to be able to analyze varying viewpoints. And, and so I, I have been very proud of my former students. The way they've conducted themselves. The way they sat through the, the hearing, and my lawyer and, and the school board's lawyer asked them questions and they answered them.
They were very articulate and answered those things so well. I was very proud, a very proud teacher on those days.
Scott Lee: Yeah. And, you mentioned, the differing points of view. I mean, if there ever was a time when right when we, when we need people, with differing points of view to be thinking and, and interacting with each other this is the time.
Mattew Hawn: Yeah. And our kids want to have those conversations, right? Even more than we did whenever we were kids, because they have the world at their fingertips. And so, one of the great things about being a contemporary issues teacher is that students would bring things into my class that we could discuss that class period.
And they, they want to learn these things. They, they want to have these discussions because out in the real world, whenever they leave my contemporary issues class, there aren't many people asking them what they think about racism in the United States or Second Amendment rights in the United States, or women's reproductive rights. We don't often ask teenagers, “Hey, what do you think about that?” Well in contemporary issues class. That's the whole purpose of the class. That's what we did. Hey, what do you think about this issue?
Scott Lee: Well, Matt, it has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Mattew Hawn: Thank you, Scott. I really appreciate it. I appreciate what you're doing and for having me on here.
Scott Lee: The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and youth organizations strengthening learning cultures and developing more resilient youth, please visit our website at w w w dot oncoursesolutions dot net. Also, please follow me on social media, my handle on Instagram and Bluesky is @drrscottlee and on Mastodon @drrscottlee@universedon.com
This has been episode 5 of the 2025 season. If you enjoy this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about us, in person and on social media. Also, five-star reviews on your podcast app helps others find us. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is a production of Oncourse Education Solutions LLC, Scott Lee producer. Guest was not compensated for appearance, nor did guest pay to appear. Episode notes, links and transcripts are available at our website w w w dot thoughtfulteacherpodcast dot com. Theme music is composed and performed by Audio Coffee.
