The Next Generation of Sloyd with Luke Johanson
Sloyd is a 19th century teaching methodology that fell out of favor in the early 20th century in America. Luke Johanson shares how The Sloyd Experience is bringing this highly useful teaching approach back to relevance for students in the 21st century.
Links
Sloyd Experience organization founded by Luke
Who Wrote the Book of Sloyd? link to episode of The Woodwright’s Shop mentioned in the podcast
Transcript
Scott Lee: Greetings friends and colleagues, welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast the professional educator’s thought partner-a service of Oncourse Education Solutions and our partner SEL Resource. I am Scott Lee.
Several years ago, I was flipping through channels one night before bed and I landed on PBS Create TV, showing an episode of The Woodwright’s Shop with Roy Underhill-a long-running show that highlights traditional woodworking and craft produced by North Carolina Public Television. This particular episode titled “Who Wrote the Book of Sloyd?” highlighted a class still taught class in many Scandinavian countries called Sloyd. Although the content often is traditional woodcraft and textiles, the real purpose of Sloyd is developing resilience and self-determination skills within students.
Ever since I saw that episode, I have been researching Sloyd and trying to find schools in North America that teach Sloyd because I thought this would be both an innovative and useful idea to share. Well friends, I finally found a non-profit that teaches Sloyd both in schools and as an after-school experience in the Boulder, Colorado area called The Sloyd Experience. Today I am sharing a conversation I had with The Sloyd Experience Co-founder and Executive Director, Luke Johanson.
Welcome Luke to the Thoughtful Teacher Podcast.
Luke Johanson: Awesome, Scott. Thanks so much. I'm thrilled to be here. I really appreciate the invite.
Scott Lee: So, let's start with learning a little bit about the Sloyd experience, and, what you do at Sloyd Experience.
Luke Johanson: Yeah, absolutely. So, I guess to answer that question, I'll back up about just over five years ago, in February of 2018, my wife and I, were perusing through our Apple TV, because that's what all cool 30 somethings do on a cold winter night, right? And our favorite app on there is, PBS, and we went to PBS and I saw the wood, the Woodwright's Shop with Roy Underhill.
And that was a bit of nostalgia for me, honestly, because Roy used to be on TV for me growing up. My dad thought it was cool. I didn't really understand at the time what was cool about this at all. He just seemed like kind of a crazy, eclectic guy that was working with old tools that didn't seem relevant or meaningful to me at the time when I was a child because I didn't really have those tools and I didn't get the chance to play with them.
Nevertheless, we're scrolling through his episodes and there was one that caught our eye. It was entitled, Who Wrote the Book of Sloyd? I had never heard the word Sloyd before. And, my curiosity got the best of me, and I wanted to know what Sloyd was. So, we clicked the episode.
And he starts talking about the most influential books in traditional woodworking, and, he pulls them off his bookshelf, and then he pulls off one that he holds up that's called The Teacher's Handbook of Sloyd. It's by Otto Salomon, and this one is from 1894, he started talking about in Scandinavia at large, Sloyd was an intentional educational method, a pedagogy that they instituted as a means of developing character in children, first and foremost.
It was not a means of teaching kids how to work wood or work with tools. Sure, there's some incidental, benefits that come along with that, but their sole aim was to cultivate. The facilities and faculties of attention, neatness, concentration, confidence, self-reliance, resilience, growth mindset, appreciation for labor, and working with your hands.
And as Roy continued to go on with what this educational method was, my wife and I, I mean, we literally looked at each other and we said, “this is what kids still need today,” and probably more at this point in humanity than ever before. There's some really interesting social changes that are taking place right now, where if we, as a society, are much more intentional in trying to teach concentration and instill self-reliance through an actual context, and that being Sloyd as an example.
Now I'm going to kind of pause and put a little disclaimer here for all of these character traits and social emotional learning that I'm starting to talk about and that will probably talk about a little bit more by no means do I ever assert that Sloyd is the answer to all problems. I do say, though, it's part of the solution, and it's a proactive solution rather than a reactive solution and starting in elementary with a deep understanding and intentionality of what we're trying to achieve in the affective domain of these young learners to set them up for success. All of the rest of their academic and just life pursuits at large.
That's what we're trying to do.
Scott Lee: It's interesting, because I remember seeing that same episode of the Woodwright’s Shop, maybe four or five years ago. And, was, curious about it as well and wanted to find more about it. And that's kind of how we ended up connecting because I had been looking for, does anybody teach Sloyd, in the United States?
Before we get too deep into Sloyd, and what it means. Maybe the best thing to do is share a typical early lesson so people understand that, it's not about strictly woodworking for kids.
Luke Johanson: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'll just kind of talk through briefly our own verbiage is with a brand-new student on their first day.
Even before getting into that, we really believe it's important to begin right off the bat to establish rapport with these students and doing our best to know their names before they even come in the door. And to create an environment in which they feel welcome and comfortable, because there are plenty of students that have never seen tools like this, or much less held or worked with tools like this.
Scott Lee: And let's just be clear when we're talking about tools, it's no power tools at all.
Luke Johanson: Absolutely. This is all traditional woodworking. I'll just rattle off a little list of the tools that we use in our classroom. We have Japanese pull saws, rulers, tape measures, block planes, bench planes, bit braces, auger bits, center bits.
Egg beater drills, different types of bow saws, turning saws, the list goes on. And that's part of the reason that Sloyd I think is, so interesting to these kids is that there's never ending novelty. There's always something new to learn, which keeps their curiosity high. That is one of our absolute biggest goals is just teaching them how to learn, right?
And to be engaged in their work and to have that desire, that pursuit, right? And just the nature of Sloyd is designed to be naturally compelling in that nature. It's not anything that I'm forcing per se. But they walk into the classroom and they're like, Whoa, what's this? What's that?
What's this type of, what's that tool do? And we'll get there, it's a progression, right? Okay. Back to your original question. I'm sorry, I'm getting off track here.
Scott Lee: Oh no, no, no, just fine.
Luke Johanson: So, knowing their names is important.
And then the first question that we ask every student with a smile on our faces, Scott, have you ever made a mistake before? Oh, yes. Right. We all have, and I respond with that smile on my face, too. And I ask them then, do you know who in this classroom has made the most mistakes? And they usually look around and then they look at me and they kind of realize that I'm the oldest person in the room so chances are good that I've made the most mistakes and they point at me and I say, absolutely, I have made the most mistakes of anybody in this room.
And what do you think about mistakes? Are they okay? What do you think, Scott?
Scott Lee: Mm
Luke Johanson: hmm. Oh, yeah.
Scott Lee: Oh, no, no, no. I want to be perfect every time.
Luke Johanson: Okay. So that response comes up very infrequently, okay, but it does come up. There are some that will say mistakes are not okay. And so that's an interesting conversation to have right off the bat.
The vast majority will say, mistakes are good. And I say, why? And they say, because they help you learn. Absolutely. And we celebrate that right off the bat. And this is so important because I strongly believe that it is one thing to say that mistakes are okay because they help you learn. And it's a different thing to feel that mistakes are okay and they help you learn.
But them verbalizing this is, is an intentional part to start setting the context of the growth mindset that we're trying to cultivate in these students through Sloyd. I then point over my shoulder to what we refer to as the wall of learning, and it's just a big, 15 foot bulletin board where I have begun to hang my own woodworking mistakes up on the wall.
And there's no shortage, okay? And it's, it's fun, again, I'm kind of getting ahead of myself here, for me, when a student is struggling emotionally later on in their Sloyd Experience, where they've made a mistake and they're having difficulty coping with it, for me to be able to pull one of my own mistakes physically off the wall, and hand it to them, and they can touch it, they can see it, I can talk about it, I can own it, I can talk about the why I made my mistake too.
I wasn't fully engaged in what I was doing here, I lost my focus, I lost my concentration, that's why I cut on this side of the wood instead of that side of the wood, and I had to try again too, even though I put a lot of time into it, and doing my best to empathize with these children. I'm not saying that you shouldn't have these feelings of frustration.
We, we feel frustrated, right? But kids, they're learning to build the skills. to cope with some of these hurdles in their lives, these skills, these life lessons, I think, are, are the foundation upon which all education must be laid. That mistakes are truly the gateway to learning. The invitation is open to all students to hang their mistakes up on the wall, if they wish.
They don't have to. They can put it on the scrap pile if they want. That's fine. The vast majority end up wanting to hang it on the wall. And the wall right now is filled with pieces of wood. And it's kind of become a beautiful and tangible representation of our humanity at large. None of us are perfect.
None of us have done everything perfectly our whole lives, right? When you're, when you're learning something new, you're gonna make some mistakes along the way. And that is just something that we need to embrace. And giving students that opportunity to learn that deeply in their hearts and their minds at a very young age.
Wow, I got, I'm so curious where these kids are going to go when they develop and mature.
Scott Lee: Yeah, that's really powerful because, I think about it and I think about all the years I was teaching, there's sort of this culture, that we have that, we want the exemplary pieces on the wall.
Luke Johanson: Yeah.
Scott Lee: and changing it around and putting the, the mistakes on the wall and celebrating the mistakes. I think it's just, a powerful and, and, and, potentially transformative approach, to helping, helping kids understand how learning takes place.
Luke Johanson: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it doesn't just happen overnight. And it's not something that you can just verbally say, I really don't believe that the context in which you teach growth mindset is so incredibly important. Back to the new student. In the classroom. I then asked them if they've ever heard the word perseverance before,
I'd say about 50 percent haven't heard the word perseverance and that couldn't, they couldn't define what perseverance means.
Scott Lee: And these are elementary age students.
Luke Johanson: Yeah. For our afterschool program, our age range is six to 14.
And so, I do my best. I'm not always. excellent at it, but in all things in the classroom, to ask leading questions, to get them to the answer, rather than me just overtly telling them what the answer is. So, in an effort to do this, I ask them, if you're doing something that's really hard, and it's really challenging, do you want to just give up and go home?
And that answer, most students say, absolutely not, you want to try again. I say, that's what perseverance is because in this Sloyd classroom, you're going to do things that are physically challenging. You're going to do things that are mentally challenging. Sometimes they might be both physically and mentally challenging at the same time.
But if you have that right attitude of perseverance in continuing to try and try and try again, coupled with the idea that mistakes aren't just okay, but they're great because they're going to help us learn, that is going to set you up for success. Not just here in Sloyd in school and in all aspects of your life.
And I have that conversation with six-year olds on day one of coming into a Sloyd classroom and to what degree those words are sinking deep in their mind. I don't fully know, but, like I said earlier, I believe that the verbalization of some of this right off the very bat is really important because these are the things that they're about to experience.
I then also ask about concentration. Most students can define concentration in that it means focusing, and I say, how do you focus? And again, I try to ask leading questions to get them to say, I look at it. I say, yes, your eyes, your eyes, your eyes are so important here in Sloyd, because if you're not looking at something, and I'm looking at them right in the eye as I'm saying this, then you're not paying attention to it.
And you're not learning. I ask them also why concentration is so important in this classroom. And most of them are able to fairly quickly ascertain that it's important for safety reasons. And it's important so that they do their best work. And that's true. I mean, for us, we're trying to teach and instill the value of concentrating deeply on a task at hand.
Scott Lee: And so how soon before they're cutting wood?
Luke Johanson: Okay. Good question. I will then go through some of my safety rules with them. I'm not going to lay out all of my safety rules here,
Scott Lee: Yeah. It's just important for our listeners to know that there are safety rules. So, so yeah.
Luke Johanson: Yeah. I think it's also really kind of a, just a fascinating thing to think about with respect to young learners and the development of their prefrontal cortex and impulse control. And that there's a framework of rules and context in different environments in which certain behavior is appropriate in certain environments and not others.
And for me to establish what those boundaries are. And then reinforce them throughout their time in Sloyd. I also think that this is a great benefit to risk management, their exposure to risk and their empowerment and ability to think for themselves on, on how they're going to respond to different risks that they encounter, not just in the Sloyd classroom and how to conduct themselves appropriately. After the safety rules, then I do a demonstration. The demonstration is how to cut one inch off of a piece of wood. And so, they're using their tape measure, they're making a little dot, they're turning their little dot into a straight line, using the square, they're using their vise, they're using their Japanese pull saw.
There are elements of, those leading questions and also self-discovery in which I'm not giving them all of the answers right away. And here's a case in point. On the Japanese pool saw, there are two sides to it. One has little teeth and one has big teeth. The little teeth are used for cross cuts and the big teeth are used for rip cuts.
And I don't get into that level of detail right off the bat on purpose. Because I think it's so easy, especially for us adults. In general, as soon as we become an expert in something, when we're trying to teach it to somebody new, so often it's easy to be tempted to want to just give them all the answers to the test right away without giving them the ability to figure out what works best.
And so for me, I say, As you go through some of these cuts, I want you to experiment with the big teeth and the little teeth, and then tell me what you think works best. And so, they do, and they say, well, this one is cleaner, it was harder to use these big teeth, and it looks all ragged, and, and Yeah, absolutely.
The little teeth are what you want to use here. And that's about all I say at that point. As we continue going through the models and throughout their experience, then we talk about grain orientation and cellular structure and, and how the teeth are shaped differently for cross cut and rip cut teeth, right?
But I'm not getting into that level of detail and nuance with them on day one.
Scott Lee: Sure.
Luke Johanson: I'm giving them that opportunity to say. No, I, I experimented and I discovered the little teeth work good awesome. That's excellent because now you have learned that you have the ability to ascertain for yourself what's right and what's wrong.
What an empowering thing.
Scott Lee: Absolutely. Yes. Because I was just thinking as you were saying that it is so easy to just want to say this is how you do it work through every single piece. And letting kids discover on their own as though is much of what the purpose is about.
Luke Johanson: Absolutely. And that's part of the reason I suppose I'll get into a little bit of this now that this is intentionally individual instruction. This is not classroom instruction. Now that doesn't mean that. We only have one instructor with one student at any given time,
Scott Lee: Right.
Luke Johanson: That means that every student that comes into the class is at his or her own point in the model series in the curriculum and they're working at their own pace,
Scott Lee: Right and in traditional Sloyd, and you may do it slightly different. I'm not sure. Just for people that aren't familiar with it. And the original Sloyd, going back to the 1800’s you would start off with a knife and there was one carving project that you would just need the knife for, and then you would turn the page on the book, and there'd be a different project that's slightly more complicated.
Every project introduces a new tool. And uh, A new technique, sometimes more than one technique, but usually a new tool. And it's totally self-paced. It takes the student as long as it takes to move from one to the other. A teacher cannot, and Roy Underhill talks about this in the episode,
Luke Johanson: right.
Scott Lee: A teacher is not supposed to show too much to the student, because the student is supposed to figure it out. And in some cases, in some situations, there's more than one right way to do things. So you, you allow that to happen
Luke Johanson: there have been things that students do that worked that I would have never thought of. And I'm blown away at their own problem solving. And, just what a beautiful. and pure and innocent thing that is, I think, when somebody has no exposure to what is right or what is wrong, they, they come up with Something that, in my mind, is almost revolutionary because I've never seen anything like that before. But, can I go back to the knife that you brought up?
The reason in Sweden that they started with the knife is because that is the tool that every student had the most familiarity with. Right. Every student at home, they had a knife on their hip pocket. And part of the principle of Sloyd is going from the known to the unknown, from the simple to the complex, from the concrete to the abstract.
And that can apply in a lot of different ways, but with respect to the tools, that was what worked the best for them because they could start with something that all of the students knew how to use. That's not true in 2024 in the United States anymore. And in fact, that wasn't true in most of Europe and the United States, even a hundred years ago.
Definitely more so than it is now. But nevertheless, as Sloyd was exported from Scandinavia and taken up by different countries around the world, as it was taken up by countries around the world, they got away from employing the knife first for that reason, because the students didn't know that tool in any way.
So, it was kind of effectively meaningless to start with that so they started with other tools with hand saws and bench planes, and that's, that's the model that we've employed now.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Because the, the Japanese saw, if you ever go to any hardware store, you're going to see that, even, even a student who's has not necessarily used it or seen it used is going to come in contact, with that, compared to a knife or definitely a bench plane. As we've mentioned, is, Sloyd is very different from being a woodworking for kids. Definitely not that. There's really six principles, of Sloyd.
Perseverance and concentration being two of them. What are the, the other four? But there's one in particular, that I'd like you to, Kind of talk about a little bit more and that's resilience. And how Sloyd helps develop resilience.
So, if you could, what are the other. Of the six principles and then, tell us a little bit more about resilience in particular.
Luke Johanson: Yeah, absolutely. So, our, our primary aims of, of what we're trying to achieve and instill as character traits perseverance, resilience, concentration, self-reliance, and neatness.
And those are in line with the primary aims as traditional Sloyd was established by Otto Salomon back in the 1800s “resilience” is not a word I believe that he ever wrote in any of his books, however. But it goes hand in hand. With everything that they were trying to achieve in their students as well.
And the intentionality of exposing children to a difficult thing that evokes a great range of emotion, students they're almost giddy the first time that they see a curl peel off the edge of a piece of wood with their plane, the curls are, are just, they're captivating. Same is true for me. Still, I love the curls of wood.
There, there's truly something magical about it. Right. Yeah. And it goes to all of the senses, right? I mean, the feel, the smoothness, the texture, the color, this, the smell, all of the things, right. We want to teach to and through the senses. Resilience. One of the definitions that I've heard on resilience is what you do before, during, and after a crisis. And I thought that was a pretty good definition, to be honest, right? There are elements of both. Proactive and reactive responses, that we as humans need to impart knowing first and foremost that there are going to be hurdles in our lives along the way.
And our ability to bounce back from whatever that setback may be is not something that starts after a crisis has started. Sure. So, in Sloyd, practice doesn't make perfect, but practice makes progress, and it's improvement that we're looking for here.
It's not perfection. So as the students go through and they're making these models,
I'm always trying to determine what that individual student's best work is.
And I verbalize also that chances are good that your first work is not always going to be your best work. Right. And so when they make a cut that is Too short on their very first project and they get that look on their face of oh my gosh I've just failed.
Scott Lee: Yeah,
Luke Johanson: even though right at the beginning of class.
They said mistakes are great because they help us learn they have some real emotion that's going on inside of them in an encouraging, in an empathetic way, but still with a commitment to discipline and wanting to strive for improvement, I challenge them if they want to try again, because I have, I have plenty of other pieces of wood.
Let's, let's try it and let's see what happens. And then they usually kind of reluctantly, say, okay, and they do they cut it to the right length because they learned from their mistakes. Right. This is a, a lot of where that resilience is, is tying into because, they're, they're learning to take ownership for their own decision making, their own actions, whether it was intentional or not.
Right. We all have. The need to own our mistakes. Life is so much better if you can do that.
Scott Lee: Absolutely. And, so many times I, as a teacher, have not been able to allow students to do that either because we have to move on or whatever.
There's so many other, priorities and, it's like “Okay, that's good enough, but we're moving on” and I, and I think we do a real, a real disservice to students when, we say you're just fine getting a C and want to move on now. Sometimes a student is just fine with that and moving on too but other times, that doesn't necessarily teach a good habit and a useful habit and a good skill.
Luke Johanson: No, especially during their formative years. Absolutely. This is when neuroplasticity is at their highest. And they're literally wiring their brains to accept mediocrity. Yeah. Yeah. Holy cow. I mean, that, that scares me, first and foremost, just for that individual. Because life is so rich and so full of opportunity.
And if you have that willingness, that eagerness to try again and, Develop and refine a skill and yourself as a, as a person. What an amazing and rich life you have ahead of you.
Scott Lee: Yeah, absolutely.
Luke Johanson: A beautiful thing. It's a beautiful thing.
Scott Lee: The Sloyd Experience works in a local public elementary school, what is some of the feedback you've gotten from teachers and parents or the community about how they see this, working with students and being good for students?
Luke Johanson: Yeah, that's a great question, Scott, the teachers. Actually, let me back up a little bit, because this is kind of an important part of the story of how Sloyd came to be in the school that we're in. The second-grade team, several years ago, they did a bit of a study abroad, if you will, over in Finland. And they saw Sloyd in action, and they were blown away at what the students were doing, what they were capable of, the empowerment that they felt as such.
It was really transformative for them. And our paths happened to cross. And they realized that that's what we were trying to do and trying to bring as an educative opportunity for, a public school. And that is how it started. It was really a grassroots thing. It was not going to the top of a district or the state.
It was teachers that recognized the important educational value that Sloyd could bring to help. supplement what they are doing through their teaching and instructing and their curriculum. And I think that's a really important element of the whole thing this is not necessarily just a subject, but it's, it's meant to really augment, bolster, reinforce everything that the students are trying to learn down the classroom.
Right. If, if we're able to, get them to really dig in to the idea of resilience and perseverance. What happens when they get to this word that they're having difficulty sounding out? Do they just give up or do they try and try and try again and they get it. And that same emotion that comes over them after, working hard to do something, they feel that again down the hall it's really hard for me to put into words what the teachers have felt and said and advocated for with what Sloyd does and brings. Because they're so eloquent in what they're doing. And honestly, I feel like it would be a disservice for me to try and summarize, some of the things that, that they've talked about.
But I was just having a conversation with one of the teachers this morning, and the teacher was talking about the real importance of giving meaning to the teaching, and what he meant by that is hands on learning opportunities. The teacher said he can teach a lesson, and again, and again, and again, on measuring or geometry or whatever, but if there's not an actual application, they're not going to retain it.
Some of the parents I've, I've really been blown away. Scott, humbled by their words is, is a bit of an understatement, but they are, are really seeing and verbalizing the. growth mindset and resilience that they have seen in their own children.
Luke Johanson: And Sloyd is something that goes beyond just that classroom time. It's something that the kids are excited about and therefore they talk about. They talk about their experience with their peers, with their parents, with their teachers. They talk about lessons learned. They talk about the hard work they did.
They talked about the mistakes they made. They talk about the improvement they made and all the feelings that go along with this. And for parents, most of the time when you ask your kid, what did you do at school today? They talk about lunch and recess. That's at least true for my own kids. But all of a sudden, Sloyd comes up into the conversation and it starts to dominate their conversation and the parents now have an avenue to further reinforce these life lessons that we're trying to instill in the children.
And it's just a beautiful full circle thing that's taking place here. There's really, there's really something going on here. It's really magical.
Scott Lee: So, tell us about, an experience of, a particular student that you'd like to share. Our story about a student.
Luke Johanson: I might actually end up talking about a couple students, but I'm going to start with one from a second grader last year. And this second grader, when he first came into the classroom, he was very reluctant to show any sort of emotion. He was reluctant to engage in any sort of conversation.
His, just engagement in general in the classroom was something I, I didn't know exactly how to respond to other than let's just give it time. So, I gave it time and there were times where it would be almost like deer in the headlights from him no matter what I said, how I explained it, how I tried to relate to him, how I tried to engage with him on a personal level. It was, it was really a struggle for me, to be honest. And then it was almost like kind of an exponential curve that took place.
And he started showing some willingness to try. And I knew that I could start to work with that. Then I started being able to celebrate his willingness to try. And that's what all of this is about, right? Is getting these students to discover the power that they have within themselves. Because even though he exhibited that deer in the headlights look.
Which, chances are good, he exhibited that deer in the headlights look in most of his academic classes down the hallway. I was able to give him some time. And then he, he tried. And, I'll just kind of cut to the chase. By the end of the year, in his Sloyd notebook, all of the students have a Sloyd notebook, where they can write anything that they want, as long as it pertains to Sloyd, they can draw, sometimes I give them prompts to write about in their notebook. He wrote, Sloyd is my dream, he started asking me if it was possible for him to do Sloyd next year, and the year after that, and wanting, wanting to do more.
Even though he didn't perhaps necessarily associate that what he was doing in Sloyd was not just helping him learn, reading, writing, math, spatial intelligence, science. It was also helping develop his. Eagerness to learn his desire to learn his pursuits of engagement in the world around him. And so, for me, that was a really transformative experience for myself.
And it's so, so true where every kid has potential. I believe that to my core. Every single kid has potential. And sometimes it's just that time and opportunity that is the defining factor on where they get the chance to, to dip their toe in the water and find their potential.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us today on the Thoughtful Teacher podcast, Luke.
Luke Johanson: It's been my pleasure, Scott. Thanks so much for all of the thoughtful questions. It's been a real pleasure talking with you today, Scott.
Scott Lee: The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and youth organizations strengthening learning cultures and developing more resilient youth, please visit our website at w w w dot oncoursesolutions dot net.
This has been episode 4 of the 2024 season. If you enjoy this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about us, in person and on social media. Also, five-star reviews on your podcast app helps others find us. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is a production of Oncourse Education Solutions LLC, Scott Lee producer, a member of PodNooga Network. Guest was not compensated for appearance, nor did guest pay to appear. Episode notes, links and transcripts are available at our website w w w dot thoughtfulteacherpodcast dot com. Theme music is composed and performed by Audio Coffee. Please follow me on social media, my handle on Instagram and Twitter is @drrscottlee and on Mastodon @drrscottlee@universedon.com
