Have you thought about your non-veral communication? With Donna Van Natten
This episode features a conversation with Dr. Donna Van Natten- the Body Language Dr.- as she shares her expertise on non-verbal communication and behavioral intentions. A former teacher herself, the conversation focuses on communication skills with students in the classroom. Donna and host Scott Lee also have worked together on school-based consulting projects and they share some of their observations from past work in school reform.
Links of interest from the episode
Dr. Donna Van Natten’s website
Background on Albert Mehrabian from Wikipedia (mentioned in episode)
Background on Clifton Strengths from Wikipedia (mentioned in episode)
Transcript
Scott Lee: Greetings friends and colleagues, welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educator’s thought partner-a service of Oncourse Education Solutions and SEL Resource. I am Scott Lee.
Our guest today is a colleague that I have sometimes collaborated with on long-term, school-based consulting projects, Dr. Donna Van Natten. A former teacher, Donna now is an author who researches the science driving non-verbal communication, facial expressions, gestures, and behavioral intentions. Donna holds a doctorate in education leadership, has published in the Journal of Leadership Education, and often delivers her Body Language Doctor workshops to companies and clients across the nation. Her books include: Image Scrimmage, The Body Language of Politics, and Body Language for Women. She’s been featured on Daily Mail UK and in Inc. Magazine for her expertise in nonverbal communication and leadership. We’ll start our conversation discussing some observations from our work together in schools and then she’ll share her thoughts on communication dynamics in the classroom.
Welcome Donna to the thoughtful teacher podcast.
Donna Van Natten: Thanks, Scott. Pleasure to be here.
Scott Lee: Great. So, normally I like to start, conversations, by asking about current roles, and we'll get to that. But first, I want to mention, that several years ago, you and I worked together, on a project supporting, uh, underperforming schools. And just so everybody out there listening knows, the Tennessee Department of Education did not really have a good statistical model, for choosing which schools were underperforming.
But anyway, we were working with schools that they thought were underperforming. So, we were working with schools, supporting improvement initiatives.
What were some things that you think school leadership teams could do better regardless, of Whether the school is considered underperforming or not,
Donna Van Natten: I think there was a lack of open data sharing, you know, on some of the simplest issues of, subset scores across grade levels and looking at those together and having really honest discussions about those.
It was easier to just highlight or deflect. On teachers that had more challenges than to actually sit down and say this, this teacher is thriving, you know, three doors down and you are struggling and why aren't the two of you together? So I found that to be a challenge at the schools that I was at.
Scott Lee: Yeah, that's interesting. Cause yeah, I did too. There just seems to be this culture in schools in general above of a lack of cooperation and collaboration, between teachers. And yeah, I found that to be common in a lot of schools
Donna Van Natten: and that's not a good thing. Is it
Scott Lee: no, it's not, it's not. That's well, that's part of the reason why, I wanted to do this podcast is to, you know, share ideas with folks.
Donna Van Natten: Well, people don't want to lose their jobs, can you imagine if there's eight of you that teach the same thing and you're at the bottom of that when it comes to your Testing, your intermittent testing, let alone your, annual, rather than get rid of you, help, have the ones, the ones that are thriving, been doing it a little while, have them help those teachers, because it's a tough profession, and if you already feel like, oh, please don't post those scores, or what am, what am I not doing right, you go in your room, you shut the door, and you're the king or, king or queen with all your subjects that you're supposed to open their brains and pour information into, but, Something's not right rather than get rid of the teacher, which sometimes has to happen, but I think more often than not, we need to figure out what that teacher is doing.
Give them more support.
Scott Lee: Yeah, so since that time, your role has changed a little bit. Why don't you share a little bit about what you do now?
Donna Van Natten: Oh, it's so funny. He says that role has definitely changed when I was uninvited to come back to the school for my insistence on sharing this data, that'd be for another podcast though, wouldn't it?
But that's okay, sometimes people are just aren't ready to hear that and what am I doing now is a still an education a bit of a broader scope if you will since 2008. I've founded a communication process company, been doing great work in school, still doing a lot of evaluation work, but I also work with corporate teams, individuals, and companies to work on people processes.
Primarily, all of what used to be called soft skills now would be the skills that you really need and we can teach you everything else kind of thing. So, I still work with adults working on really diving deep into inter and interpersonal relationships and communication and sometimes self-esteem, or career planning and, just help people, it's the biggest line-item, Scott in a budget, so unlike a lot of academic, which has very limited line-item budget, sometimes for profit is able to invest deeper into their employee line item.
Scott Lee: So, a lot of the soft skills, communication, and teaching people how to communicate better, is really important. And, but you've also still continued and you visited a lot of classrooms. How would you, generally assess, how effective teachers are regarding their communication skills?
How would you assess, communication skills, particularly in a classroom or education context?
Donna Van Natten: A lot of the work that I do now with schools would be in out of school time settings before school after school or summer.
And it's not always certified teachers. We also have other staff that wouldn't necessarily be credentialed. And it's all over the board. You have the ones that Really have excellent tone of voice. All the elements that go with that, you know, a little body language and you can see there's a rapport with the kids and you see the ones and, and kids can see through, you know, they always talk about in magic, a magician never wants to perform in front of kids because they can see the tell.
Whereas adults were like, “Oh, that was really cool.” But kids know whether you actually like them or not. They're very perceptive. They know what shoes you wear and you wore them three days ago. They know your hair and your car. And as much as they want to learn about you and you think you're being savvy by not giving yourself away, they're, they're very keen on that.
And I think you have to adapt. You know, if we have kids that come out of some challenging home lives and we have to teach them the rules of school, the hidden rules, if you will, of you may scream and cuss at home, but at here, rather than get the kid in trouble, how about teaching them that there's a different set of rules?
And that applies to people in all sorts of settings, just watch people in restaurants and, and behavior. So, one of these behavioral based traits in communication and the ones that have it are able to regulate their tone from as far as volume, word choice, pronunciation of words, spacing, “ums” and “ahs,” how fast they talk, and, you know, versus how fast a child talks and can comprehend that.
And then you have the ones that they just seem to be really loud and not so nice with kids. So, I can see how that's received, especially if a kid starts yelling, you too might want to yell, to match that kid, but that may not be the answer. So, that's when you have to say, oh, that's right, I'm the grown up here.
Scott Lee: Yeah, a lot of times, when the kid starts getting louder, you know, the adult needs to start going kind of low and slow, slow down, and say things quieter. And that that's usually a better way, especially, when a kid is becoming agitated,
Donna Van Natten: Most definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So actually, the research actually counts words per minute as far as how fast we speak. And there's a range like 190 to 210. And it was kind of funny that somebody actually studies that and they were talking about, when you have existing knowledge, current, you know, knowledge you and I'm and our listeners might understand like how to load the dishwasher.
Right. So, if I were to say to you, “Scott, open the door and put the glass in the sink. In the rack,” you'd be like, “why is she talking so slowly to me? I know what this is about.” Versus if we were talking about a computer program or some type of, you know, concept and I was just rolling it off. It was the sixth time I've taught it that day.
And by the sixth period, I have learned it really well. And then the kids are like, “Oh,” so our brains process at a certain rate. So, it's just, again, if we have common knowledge that we may be very comfortable with, we speak faster. And if not, then it's going to be condescending or sarcastic, right? Like, did you hear me?
Uh, no. You know, you want to match it back and go, no, I did not. We know that sarcasm, which isn't received well and being condescending, but we have to understand if we're talking a language that the kids aren't comfortable with, that we have to slow that down a little bit, not to a sarcastic or condescending rate, but so that the brain can actually process it.
Scott Lee: Yeah, and it's interesting, you mentioned the, the studies of how fast people talk. And, I'm sitting here thinking, why did I never learn that in a teacher education program? What do you think teacher education programs are missing in, in regards to communication?
Is it things like that? The only class I ever had about communication in my initial teacher education, in college, as I'm thinking about it, there were a couple of psychology classes that sort of touched on it a little bit, but the only class about communication was public speaking, which as teachers, you know, public speaking, I'm not sure is that important, unless it's taught about focused on communication.
Donna Van Natten: Just a given, you're going to be in front of all these kids and know what to do. No, I agree with you. I mean, we had a lot of times. People might take speech and debate in high school, okay.
Or, and we know that people have a huge fear of public speaking, right? Either you like it or you, you know, bolt through the door if someone says you speak so yeah, to be more intentional about it, I think would be an excellent idea about the elements of. Mehrabain’s work on the spoken word and the tone of voice and our non-verbals.
That's what all my books are on, is the power of the non-verbals, because it's all around us. We never, we have a lot of light information about it, like, why are you doing that? Or why are they doing that? That people are putting a read on you as well as you're putting a read on them kind of thing.
So why not be intentional about it? And It's a fascinating topic, because people have just enough information to go, “what does this mean? What does this mean?” And so it, knowing that the kids are already picking up on it, just like we pick up on some feelings of them too, more maybe overtly of the rolling of the eyes, or the throwing up of the hands, or the turning of the head, or the sneer.
But what are we doing? What are our micro expressions that the kid's also picking up on? And aren't we in control of those or they just kind of fall out of our body?
Scott Lee: Yeah. Yeah. And, and sometimes, unfortunately, no matter what, some of those things are gonna, as you say, fall out of your body, right. Politics.
Donna Van Natten: Look at politics today. That's turn the TV, turn the TV down and watch the show because you don't need words to figure out everything that's going on.
Scott Lee: Right. Do you think that besides obviously reading and writing, which there's a huge emphasis in schools, but other forms of communication, do you think we do a good job of teaching students about interpersonal communication?
Donna Van Natten: I think some of the, perhaps grammar, how to speak well, if you will, or we tend to say things like speak up or don't talk so loud. I think some of the obvious ones we do, but like I mentioned earlier, how fast we talk or the latency space of between two people speaking of what's that space in there.
Are we rolling over each other's words, which some cultures would consider rude. I talk, you talk, I talk, you talk. Okay. Some like a larger latency space, which you're thinking, well, at what point are they going to answer? And that does vary, you know, depending where you are. And when you're talking about, it is global, the, the, the spacing, if you will, but it's also in our country, when you think about, this, the South versus the North.
And the comments you might hear from either population. So, I'm from the West, so I can say the North and the South. You know, no, no different than how we pronounce words or how many times we say “um” or “ah” and that, those spaces in there as well. Like I said, amplitude of how loud we are and we can regulate some of that and we should be able to do that.
So, I think it'd be fantastic if we did. teach it and whenever I'm speaking, people will come up and they say, “this is my favorite class in college. I had one of these classes, you know, and I really stuck with me and this is so cool.” So, it tends to trigger great memories in the sense of like, reading body language or nonverbal communication.
And that other 90 percent that plus, that's not just our words for how we communicate. We can, because we don't need words to communicate. We, we could, if we had to play a game of charades, you could probably get what you wanted without ever uttering, the spoken word.
Scott Lee: Yeah. That just reminds me of a, of a funny story from teaching history.
Calvin Coolidge, who was known as silent Cal, he's the first president that you see a lot of pictures of him dressed up and, and doing different things. He would go, out West and, and go on a hunting trip. And he always made sure that there were photographs of him, hunting and, and with whatever.
Donna Van Natten: Was image hunted, right?
Scott Lee: Yeah, but it was very image based, the way that he approached public relations. One time, at a, uh, dinner in the White House, there was a woman who was a guest and, she said, “I bet my friends that I could make you say at least three words.”
He said, “you lose” and never spoke another word, the entire dinner.
Donna Van Natten: That’s great.
Scott Lee: But yeah., but yeah, it's a good story about, communication and about nonverbal communication stuff.
Donna Van Natten: Absolutely. And, and when you, when you turn the TV on, and this is the year of politics, you know, which I, I, I did for one whole book, the publisher wanted a book about the body language of politics.
It's good. You can actually apply it to any field, but it's fascinating. Not only do you put in there, gender and expectations, but then party and expectations and behaviors that we should have or, and expectations, and how we give grace once we're part of an in group, or if they're part of our in group, then we put a different read on it.
What we might see as aggressive or assertive on it. On one is suddenly like, “Oh no,” what such leadership on our in group, you know, favorite kind of thing. So absolutely. And one might sound like a babbling idiot, but the other one is simply finding the right word.
Scott Lee: Right. Yeah. And we do the same thing with students so much too. You know the, the, aggressive student is rarely seen as a leader, even though they're the ones who oftentimes, it takes a great deal of leadership for them to, get five or six other kids to act with them. Yeah. Whereas the other kids possibly who are more like us or less defiant we more grace and sometimes that may or may not be correct.
Donna Van Natten: Correct. Yeah, and that's where we really have to check ourselves and our own bias, we all have an incredible amount of bias as a human being, which that's fine. It's, it's part of being a human being, but we just have to remember to check that as we, tend to default to our favorites or why we like things.
To challenge that in ourselves. Cause you know, as we get older, we tend to be more fear based and we tend to not necessarily want to change. And you can see that with, the rivals of the, uh, the boomers versus the millennials okay, boomer kind of thing. And, and if you think back.
And I'm not a boomer. I'm nestled carefully in between as an [generation] X. I think you probably are too. We're just watching the show. But I think that boomers, if they look, if they could appreciate each other, they acted the same way, in their late twenties and thirties. And so maybe, maybe it's not so much that label, but it's just that time of your life, didn't we all kind of act like that in our thirties or in our forties or in our sixties, seventies kind of thing?
Versus just giving it that label up. “Just wait. You'll be here too. Yeah. One day.”
Scott Lee: I do want to ask you about a student, a favorite story about a student.
Donna Van Natten: You know, I think one of the things is if we can teach kids, and be a lot of fun.
Teach them like some kids might be able to say, I need more processing time versus them not saying anything and help kids understand who they are because, you know, when you study strengths, Clifton Strengths, you realize that, you know, if you're a deliberative, which is great, we need people to be deliberative and we need little people to be deliberate and thoughtful to be strategic before they say something.
And that's okay to take that extra pause. Or if you're the one that has to ask a thousand questions because you have an input strength that that's how you seek your answers versus just being nosy. So, if we can help little people and even big people off a strength-based approach versus a deficit or you're in trouble or that's a weakness or you're not fitting in.
It would really benefit everybody. You'd actually be able to say with confidence, well, “I do this because, and that's just who I am, and I'm aware of it.” So, it's not unharnessed, if you will. So, that's a part of communication too, is understanding what your innateness is for how you want to communicate in social situations.
and, and being valued for that, even if you're the quiet one of the group. I always used to joke that I, when it came to group projects, you know, I knew exactly what I wanted and who I didn't want in the group. I'm a worker bee, I need fellow worker bees kind of thing. I, and I'm the one that can make the pretty charts and posters count on me. It kind of, I didn't want the one that made the crappy ones. Oh yeah. Yeah.
Scott Lee: Well, any, anytime we were in a group. Group working together. Yeah. It was always “give Donna all the markers.”
Donna Van Natten: Oh, yeah. Yep. Kind of like now, uh, I just, I just had funny. I didn't get a chance to talk. I just had this, advanced business strategies class at Harvard and we'd break out into these small groups and they would be like, okay, uh, we need somebody to, who's going to put the PowerPoint.
So, when we do the presentation and there'd be that awkward pause for about 10 seconds as we're all staring. And of course, nine times out of 10, I would say “I've already started it. Keep talking, everybody.” So, I've shifted from Crayola and poster board to PowerPoint and a copy paste. But the way I see it is if you get to make the PowerPoint, there's a high likelihood you'll get to present most of the PowerPoint. So, I don't want to get lost in a sea of 38 pupils in a class, right? Globally.
Scott Lee: Yeah, absolutely. It's also interesting that, that you mentioned one of the problems I see in education in general, mentioned strength-based and, and looking at, your strengths, and looking for the student's strengths, we live in a, in the education bubble, education world, and, and you and I used to always use the term education bubble.
That's right. yeah, we could do a whole other episode on what we meant by that.
Donna Van Natten: What happens in the bubble.
Scott Lee: Inside that bubble, one of the problems, and we talked about it, years ago, was so much of our terminology is deficit based.
Donna Van Natten: Definitely.
Scott Lee: And, and trying to switch and change that paradigm. Mm-hmm. for teachers to not always think about the, the deficit and you're talking now the communication.
Donna Van Natten: Yeah,
Scott Lee: communication.
Donna Van Natten: And, and, and we we're designed to be, “what's wrong?” Somebody walks in and they have a certain look, a pensive look, and you're like, immediately, “what's wrong?”
The phone rings and you're like, “hello.” And we're, we're almost preparing ourselves for how bad it's going to be. So, I don't get that as a human, how we have to look out for danger and be safe and all that kind of stuff, but what have we created that, that playing up that fear, I used to work for government and
that's, without putting this on record, a lot of government agencies in general operate off fear, good use of taxpayer dollar and by the rules and, you know, there's no room for emotion and don't mess up and if you do, and you're like, “Oh, golly, that's, that's a long day. Yes. Do we get to do it again tomorrow?”
So yeah, it would be nice if we could almost kind of say things that we want to say for improvement. If we could take fear or retaliation out of it. Can you imagine what could get done? Right? Absolutely.
Scott Lee: Yes. Yes. I know. So, before we go, do you, have a story, you'd like to share about a student or a teacher working with a group of students or anything?
Donna Van Natten: Yeah, I was doing an evaluation. This has always stuck with me for years. Cause you know, when and getting to hear kids talk and, and it was an evaluation for an afterschool and summer program through grant funded dollars. And, I would come in and I like to talk to the kids and kind of get some qualitative information about them and just really just kind of random.
And I was talking to this, six-year-old boy. He was in first grade and this has probably been 15 years ago. And, you always kind of look for those quotes out there that something just awe inspiring that a child says. And, “So what do you think of your after-school program?”
And he sat for a minute and he said, “Well, I like the after-school program more than I like my bike. And I, I really like my bike.”
It doesn't get any better than that. So, I said to the director, I said, “if you do this, right, you'll use that quote for years.” Because that was. That's a place of heartfelt six-year-old boy and his bike, right? And you can imagine if he didn't like the after-school program, he would have said so but to compare it to his his love of his life his bike.
I thought was so heart heartfelt and it's always stuck with me that if we sometimes just get quiet and listen to kids who they are and what they have to say they have a lot to say and sometimes it's pretty funny and sticks with you
Scott Lee: Oh, that is, that is good. I love that. Like, “it's better than my bike.”
Donna Van Natten: “And I really love my bike.”
Like, we should, we should, you should be funded for another year because that six-year-old told exactly what he thought of, of his experience. Correct.
Scott Lee: Absolutely. That, that, that should get you funding for at least another year. Yeah. So
Donna Van Natten: yeah, definitely. Yeah. So, I, I think teachers have an incredibly hard job.
The old teacher in me that you the old junior high school teacher in me of 30 years ago. I look at the shift, nationally to assessment based everything, and I saw the shift happening, If it's not worth doing, if it's not worth measuring, and I'm, I think my, my teachers and I used to joke about like when kids go to the bathroom, “you make sure you count the squares of toilet paper, you have to assess the number of squares of toilet paper” because if we, the pendulum swung to such an assessment and count it to measure to make it had value.
And. Hopefully, you know, it's kind of like when we swing from reading to math and it swings back to reading to math. And, now post COVID we're definitely in this reading cycle because of all these losses and, and, uh, very clear ties of literacy and reading to getting out of poverty. And, again, it'll swing back to math and new math and math.
We don't understand and things like that, but I, I'm, I'm glad we're in literacy. I think that's huge. That's probably because I taught English language arts. So, I appreciate that very much. And math was always foreign to me. I think that they have an incredibly hard job to appease the, what the, the kid needs, what the, the parents, you know, social media and the internet, a wonderful, horrible thing, helicoptering, and then assessment demands.
So, I applaud people that stay in it. I think I made it almost 10 years. Yeah. How about you, Scott? How many years? How many years did you make it?
Scott Lee: 18.
Donna Van Natten: See? Yep. And,
Scott Lee: And I was thinking about that this morning. I finally realized why I think nobody else will hire me. Every school that I've worked at is closed.
Donna Van Natten: Well, you have that way, don't you?
Scott Lee: yeah, yeah, I mean, even one of the school districts I've worked in has since closed.
Donna Van Natten: Wow.
Scott Lee: So, yeah, I'm just a wrecking ball. So that's why, that's why I do this now working with schools because I'm the kiss of death if you hire me.
Donna Van Natten: So, we need a new building. Bring them in. [both laughing]
Scott Lee: Exactly. We know, we, we knew we need for this project
Donna Van Natten: and gym will be torn down in 30 days [laughing]. It's a, it's a great place to be now on, on the more seasoned end of it and see it from a different perspective. Of course, time gives you perspective and things like that.
And as you look back, and I remember my first-year teaching Scott, I, I got my foot in the door, doing pull out special ed, right. Of course. It was great. It was green. I mean, green as could be. I think I was 23 on a good day. Right. And I had, I had a parapro, Ms. Dorcas, Dorcas McCrary. God love her soul.
And I didn't know what to do with her. I just suddenly had this parapro and I being the young, eager, scholar, was going to take control. And, Ms. McCreary had been there, I don't know, 80 years from what it seemed like. [laughing]
And, so I'm sure she looked at me and had some thoughts too. And, I remember when she said, “well, what would you like me to do today?” You know? And I said, “why don't you make a bulletin board?” And so, I would like to formally apologize to Mrs. McCrary and all that she had to offer and that she put up with me, in my, bulletin board making days.
So, the value that that woman had that I just couldn't see was incredible. So that's, like I said, that's been 30 years ago, but I'll always remember her in the sense of like, If I, if I had been smart, I would have been like, “you could teach all this.”
You teach me something today. Why don't you tell me what to do? Yep. Yep. Like I said, we're kind of on the other end of it and, and to see. To, to learn from others. And I think that's, we were even talking earlier about the, the bad assessments and the subsets of why can't we learn from the ones who do it better than us?
And just say, like, I, I'm miserable. And I, but I will say I work with a lot of, younger people now, millennial and even z that are much more open. To saying, “I don't know, or teach me this.” And it's been, it's wonderfully refreshing. So, let's keep that perspective.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Cause yeah, you started at the same time I did, and we were supposed to know everything day one when we walked in the classroom because, because you got to be “in charge of the kids,” so, yeah,
Donna Van Natten: we didn't have a class on what to do, what to do with your parapro.
Scott Lee: Right? No, not at all. And I remember one time going into a pullout special ed classroom I was substituting at the time and I didn't know if I was subbing for the, I mean, they had such a team. I couldn't tell if I was subbing for the parapro or the, or the, teacher or the regular teacher.
That was eye-opening. To me that they click so well together and we're such a good team, that I couldn't tell. Yeah.
Donna Van Natten: See, I had a whole year of like making a fool out of myself. You had one day. Good job.
Scott Lee: Well, so I did find out, when I got my paycheck though, and I actually did sub in that room two or three times, but I could tell when I got the paycheck because I got paid less as a sub for the parapro than the actual teacher for doing the, almost the very same thing. For doing the same thing.
Donna Van Natten: Yeah, so now you knew.
Scott Lee: Now I know. Yeah.
Donna Van Natten: Good observation. Most definitely. A, a really good observation. Yeah.
Scott Lee: Yeah. Well, and it was only because it clicked. Oh gosh. Nobody taught me any of this, so
Donna Van Natten: No, they don't. And I, I was all excited about doing my own bulletin board, so I, begrudgingly gave it up to this, this person that was going to be in my room all year, my room all year.
Right. Yeah. So, Mm-Hmm. Yeah. So that, that was my 6-year-old story and my parapros story. How's that?
Scott Lee: Thank you so much for, for joining us today. Donna.
Donna Van Natten: My pleasure. I it's lovely to keep my foot in the door and see how education comes in cycles like most things some things have changed some things haven't changed thankfully and, and it's encouraging as we continue to see education shift and your work that you do is impressive You so stay the course.
Scott Lee: All right. Well, thanks once again, Donna, for joining us today.
Donna Van Natten: My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate that. I look forward to the next time we get together.
Scott Lee: The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and youth organizations strengthening learning cultures and developing more resilient youth, please visit our website at w w w dot oncoursesolutions dot net.
This has been episode 6 of the 2024 season. If you enjoy this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about us, in person and on social media. Also, five-star reviews on your podcast app helps others find us. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is a production of Oncourse Education Solutions LLC, Scott Lee producer. Guest was not compensated for appearance, nor did guest pay to appear. Episode notes, links and transcripts are available at our website w w w dot thoughtfulteacherpodcast dot com. Theme music is composed and performed by Audio Coffee. Please follow me on social media, my handle on Instagram and Twitter is @drrscottlee and on Mastodon @drrscottlee@universedon.com
