De-escalation and School Safety with Amy Murphy and Brian Van Brunt part 2
In the second part of our discussion on school safety and de-escalation Amy Muphy, Brian Van Brunt and Scott Lee discuss the public health model for safety and de-escalation, teacher creativity, relationships and get sidetracked a little about films that feature teachers.
Crisis situations in the classroom often times cannot be avoided, but educators can make choices that can help de-escalate or escalate the situation. Understanding the nature of a crisis and the relationship a teacher develops with a student can have a profound impact on the outcome of a crisis or dangerous situation. This second episode of a two-part series provides valuable insight into how teachers can create a safe and healthy classroom environment.
Amy and Brian recommend a research-based three-pronged approach to preventing or mitigating crisis situations in a classroom setting: clarifying norms for a safe climate, de-escalation, and teamwork.
Transcript
Scott Lee 0:01
Greetings friends and colleagues. Welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educators thought partner, a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. Today we continue with part two of our discussion on school safety and de- escalating disruptive students with Dr. Amy Murphy and Dr. Brian Van Brunt, who have co authored "Addressing Dangerous Behavior in the Classroom" in the September 2018 edition of Education Leadership, and the book, Uprooting Sexual Violence in Higher Education. Amy Murphy is Assistant Professor in the Department of Curriculum and Instruction at Angelo State University. She was formerly the Dean of Students at Texas Tech University, and has more than 20 years of student affairs administrative experiences, including work related to behavioral intervention, crisis response, prevention, and wellness. She co-authored A Staff Guide to Addressing Disruptive and Dangerous Behavior on Campus. Her research includes the joint development of the ERIS: Extremist Risk Intervention Scale, as well as other tools and resources for behavioral intervention teams in schools and universities. She has authored more than 10 different book chapters and several peer reviewed journal articles on related topics. Amy is past president of the National Behavioral Intervention Team Association, and past Managing Editor of the Journal of Campus Behavioral Intervention. She is a member of the advisory team for the International Alliance for Care and Threat Teams. Brian Van Brunt is the Assistant Deputy Director for training at Secure Community Network, formerly the president of the National Association for Behavioral Intervention and Threat Assessment. Brian has provided consulting services to schools, colleges and universities across the country and abroad on a variety of topics related to student mental health, counseling, campus violence and behavioral intervention. Brian has taught at a number of universities and colleges offering courses in counseling theory, ethics, program evaluation, statistics, and sociology. He has served as the director of counseling at New England College and Western Kentucky University. In addition to authoring several books, he has published numerous articles in academic peer reviewed journals, and practice based publications. He recently published his first novel, Wolf Howling with two more in the series coming soon, we pick up our conversation, discussing the public health approach to school safety, and Amy and Brian discuss some of the issues that have come up during professional learning sessions.
Amy Murphy 3:12
We sometimes don't see the problems that are there in front of us or it just seems inevitable that the problem is going to happen. Regardless of what we do, or we just don't feel like we have the time to deal with the problem. And I think that the hope is, by connecting together these three prongs of violence prevention in the classroom, that it helps to convey the importance of going upstream to classroom climate and de escalation as these really critical and valuable pieces for for teachers to invest in.
Scott Lee 3:43
It's so interesting, how many people dealing with issues like this, all focus on these three things, you know, going upstream, and of course, the PBIS, PBIS model, same thing, it's a public health approach. If you do it well, and focus on what students need, it continues to work. Do you find generally, in terms of when situations get to crisis response? That oftentimes, people were not being preventative enough? Is that usually where you find the problem has has occurred? Start with you, Amy.
Amy Murphy 4:22
I'm gonna kick it to Brian.
Scott Lee 4:25
Oh, okay. Okay, well, that's fine.
Amy Murphy 4:27
He's ready to answer.
Brian Van Brunt 4:29
Always ready to answer Amy knows that about me. Let me do a short answer. I let me tell a story. And I'm not going to use names because this is probably not a great public story. But you know, we were, I was hired as a consultant for a group to come in and do some work in under privileged school district. And one of the things I struggled with and tried to make some peace with was the money they were spending on the consultant coming in to do the work rather than spending the money on the teachers were everyone who looked at the school district was like, "well, here's your problem, you have, you know, really impoverished kids without access to things like internet resources that other people take for granted. And we have consultants coming in with this solution around crisis de escalation". And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't bad. I think the information that we shared was useful. But the problem was a Maslow's hierarchy problem. These this was like we're hitting self actualization advice on how to, you know, reimagine the crisis itself. And the problem really is resources dedicated to these students, there's a problem of privilege, I can go so far as to say it's a problem of systemic racism in the system, worked into it. So those were the issues. So I really do believe the core tenants of Carl Rogers and the humanistic approach to counseling, that people are generally good. They generally are successful when they're in the right environment that has like a flower, the right soil, the right water, the right sunlight, to grow and learn. And more often than not, I don't know if this tracks with you, Scott or Amy, but, you know, when I'm not at my best when I'm stressed, or overwhelmed, or I'm hungry, or, you know, distracted or I don't have the funds or the resources I needed to accomplish a goal. I'm I'm more prone to crisis. And I think we just have to look inside and appreciate that, that it's, it's the rare crisis that really just is looking for a singular, technical way of, I think about that Robin Williams movie, you're gonna have to help me with the title. Where he's the "How about these apples" with the Matt Damon? Either big
Scott Lee 6:49
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good Will Hunting.
Brian Van Brunt 6:51
Yeah, right, like so I think it's very rare that we need some kind of like cathartic therapeutic insight, like in Good Will Hunting, where he has this like breakdown afterwards, like, now I'm gonna change my life. I think much more commonly, it's an awareness of the systemic issues in society, which are much harder to address rather than hiring a consultant and to come talk to a school district. So I feel like I'm just talking myself out of some consulting gig. But the reality is, the money's already allocated. So we went in and did that we did the best we could to really stay grounded and focused on the needs in front of them and try to avoid the in the sky issues. And I'll go back finally, to my earlier statement, we spent those 20 minutes of every hour listening to them and their stories so that they've felt understood and were understood, and that our interventions and suggestions were more grounded in the reality of what they were trying to do. And that's important to me.
Amy Murphy 7:52
I think it's one reason I was struggling with the question a little bit, because we're in this moment, right? I've teacher shortages, teacher burnout, right education and healthcare been hit extremely hard by the pandemic. And so for me, if I could tell school personnel and teachers one thing, I would want them to know that they do have the skills and the attitudes to help promote safety in their classrooms, and to de escalate these crisis without a lot of additional training or special techniques that I think they sometimes second guessed their ability to know what to do when one of the most important things that they can do is to be an engaging and authentic teacher, and to build mutually respectful relationships with students. And I hope that that would feel good for teachers to hear that in this moment of we've got to prioritize what we're doing. We have a lot on our plates, we can only do so much. I hope it feels good to know that prioritize these basic elements of good teaching, and it will go a long way toward the prevention of school violence, despite in spite of all of these other factors that you know, Brian took us through a while ago.
Scott Lee 9:03
It's also interesting that you mentioned Good Will Hunting, a little bit of the backstory. And I think this goes kind of to your point, part of the way that they had the idea for the movie and Matt Damon co-wrote it with Ben Affleck, the movie and I only know this because Matt Damon's mother is the early childhood expert, Nancy Carlsson-Paige. And I saw her at a conference one time and she mentioned that for a movie, you've got to have that cathartic moment, you know, you got to have the drama. In reality, it's a much longer process. So many times teachers tell me that they want to get this situation over and done with, I guess really what I want to get at how do you embed de-escalation as part of a regular professional practice?
Amy Murphy 9:55
I would remind them to fall back on their most basic helping skills and for me, I can't remember a lot of things I can remember these days, I can remember that I need to actively listen, I can remember that I need to build rapport with students. And I can remember that I need to show empathy. And those three things will take you a long way, in terms of preventing conflict. And I think And Brian, you may disagree in terms of de escalating conflict. So those three basic coping skills, and I think provide a foundation that you can weave into your daily practice very easily.
Brian Van Brunt 10:32
I mean, I firmly disagree. I mean, I think [laughing] most people, I'm caring about them, what horrible way to approach things. What are you thinking? Obviously, yes, those are good. For sure. You know, and I tried to think about, sometimes it feels a little negative to especially my last comments about the challenges, I think facing teachers from their own, if you will SEL challenges as they, they try to teach and especially right now, I'm reminded of a story. It was training therapists in a college setting, and it was near the end of the semester, and one of the therapists interns came to me, there's about two weeks left, and they said, so we're not taking new clients, right? Because there's only two weeks left, and I can't really start a therapeutic engaging with someone for two weeks. So I probably should just wait and have them see someone over the summer. And I'm like, no, no, you should see them now. And there's, to me a power in the immediacy. If we get stuck thinking the only way we can be effective as long term engagement. I think there's also that grandmother grandfather clock swing to the other side, that I know all of us have personal stories where one small interaction with someone made the difference. And I had the privilege of having a number of clients, I don't know how I feel about this, who would tell me the same story, that after meeting with me for a year, they had internalized a little Brian on their shoulder that would talk to them. I was very much not sure how I felt about that. But it would give them advice and say, this is something that Brian would approve of, and what do we think and, and so you know, it was it was really just amazing to me, the way that the people that we teach that we care about that we provide therapy to the kind of unknown aspects of what we share, that means something so powerful to them. So while we're talking about the long term investment, I think it's also important to remember that a simple act of kindness, something as small as we had a teacher who was providing some socks for students whose parents got divorced, and they had uniforms, big proponent of uniforms, really deals with a lot of the challenges with, you know, social and interactions with students. And, you know, but they didn't have clean socks, and it was an issue and they're wearing a different color sock. But the teacher had invested in those. And we all have stories of teachers who go above and beyond. And I think when we're training them, it really is that parallel process of appreciating their work, people like to be identified and acknowledged, sometimes that's all we need to have that energy to go forward and to pass that down to the students that they're working with. So this is super touchy feely, and the opposite of what I was just saying. But I think it's an important reminder that when we do train and talk about de escalation techniques, and the way to apply all these things in the same way, when I train therapists, that there's the content stuff, that's super important. But more importantly, it's the encouragement, the inspiration of hope, the caring for them as an educator and kind of reminding them a little bit about why they got into this. And even though the was the slings and arrows that we suffer, have worn them down a bit. I have very fond memories of feeling exhausted at times. And then I talked to a friend or someone who inspires me and reminds me, and then I'm suddenly full of energy. So I think that's part of it, too, when we're training and talking with teachers about these issues to not neglect that person-centered side of caring for them as people and honoring the work that they're doing. Now, I'm going to Richard Dreyfus place What's that one where everyone stands up and claps for him, Scott I feel like you're a movie buff, see, oh,
Scott Lee 14:19
well, no, actually what I think the movie that you're thinking of, and I'm not I will tell you why I know almost all of these movies. Is it? Mr. Holland's Opus?
Brian Van Brunt 14:31
Yeah,
Scott Lee 14:32
he writes. Yeah, he writes a piece. When I was working on my master's degree. I ended up taking a class, Topics in Philosophy of Education. So it could be anything that the professor wanted to teach and that semester, the topic was the teacher and film. And so I have watched, I won't say I've watched every movie about teachers. We broke down how the teacher was depicted in film and so I have seen almost every movie about that features that teacher I think
Brian Van Brunt 15:10
a solid like Edward James Olmos impression that you could rock out right?
Scott Lee 15:17
Not that good. My stepdaughter is a professional actress and so I know to stay in my lane on that.
Brian Van Brunt 15:26
Amt we wandered over here for a little bit anything you good, okay, cool.
Scott Lee 15:36
So Amy's
Amy Murphy 15:36
not on board with with what ya'll are talking about I'm just being quiet to make editing easier.
Scott Lee 15:43
What's your favorite teacher movie? Yeah. No.
Brian Van Brunt 15:48
Not an uncommon experience for me to be like, What the heck is Brian? She has it down cold.
Amy Murphy 15:56
I'm just trying to think of the name of the movie with the other Robin Williams movie. What is the one where he jumps up on the desk? Why can I not think of the name?
Scott Lee 16:07
Dead Poets? Society? Poets Society? Yes.
Brian Van Brunt 16:11
You've created now a podcast of just everyone's like, What's that movie? They're shouting it at the radio? Why don't they know this? What's wrong with these people?
Scott Lee 16:25
So my next podcast and I'm gonna have you both back because we're gonna we're gonna have an episode on every movie that I've watched about the teacher and film.
Amy Murphy 16:34
Now I feel like it's okay to share that while ago when Brian said, what's the movie with the two apples and Robin Williams? I was like, "Patch Adams" I'm so glad I didn't say because it did not fit at all. See why y'all want me to just be quiet?
Brian Van Brunt 16:50
we did. Scott was thinking about this too, you know, in our book, and here's a great plug for this. And by the way, you never get rich reading a book. So it's not like you're like, right?
Scott Lee 16:59
Yeah, I know.
Brian Van Brunt 17:00
You understand. The Staff Guide to Disruptive and Dangerous Behavior, which I actually like better than the Faculty Guide. We, at every chapter included an 80s movie that was related a quote from it, much to the chagrin of the editors, they didn't refer for that, because there's a lot of permissions that needed to be obtained. And then we're that last chapter, which I was the most proud of, there's always that summary chapter at the end of the book that are usually boring as heck. So we went back and forth. Remember, we just worked in 80s music quotes and like, very clearly, like we said, we're going to do it. So I think it's here, let me make this educational. So you know, having some funds Mary Poppins, right. It's like the medicine and the sugar and stuff like we, we, I think when teaching and people who are enthusiastic about it, as well, we talked about genuineness early on, like the other part is actually enjoying what you do. And I think sometimes teachers are, again, pushed down by the system, they kind of lose their creativity, they get into office space, place with pieces of flair, might as well stay in the movie theme, that they're they're really losing some of their ability to be creative, and they're just feeling pushed down. So that's another thing we try to I think, reimagine them. I think it's one of my favorite comments that I've heard after trainings where people will say, I knew this, I've never heard it explained that way. And now I see why this would actually work to help solve the problem, which, you know, a lot of the work we do is just again, distilling concepts they might have learned and in graduate school, you know, no one, no one jumps out to chicken wings vectors or Bloom's Taxonomy, you know, in everyday speech, but to hear it, how it could be applied in a teaching setting and the here and now are hearing SEL described in a way that isn't just about compliance for district standards, but really is that the heart and soul of why this is important that when kids are hungry, and tired and feeling overwhelmed, and struggling with mental health issues, they're not as good in the academic setting. So we have to address those things first. So that's that's been a big strength, I think in some of the trainings that we've done.
Scott Lee 19:16
Anything else to add on that, Amy? Because I was about to ask, you know, what policy level changes do you recommend? And Brian just answered that, which is good. Anything else that you'd like to add on to that? Amy?
Amy Murphy 19:32
Have a such a good closing? I hate to ruin it.
Brian Van Brunt 19:36
I've been thinking No. Amy answers this question. So well.
Amy Murphy 19:40
Well, I mean, our K 12. Schools are already so embedded with so much policy and regulation from state and federal governments. And so I don't know when when I was thinking about this question. There's been a great deal of focus lately from school counselors about the percentage of time school counselors should spend out side of direct counseling services. And this isn't a policy change. It's just an interesting idea. And they're pushing back right on using counselors to like load buses or to take lunch duty or to monitor test environments and all these other maybe administrative tasks that could shift to non-counselors. And I think it's a tricky balance, right, because on one hand, we need teachers and counselors out in the halls and out inbus areas, seeing what's occurring with students, but on, you certainly want to have both teachers and counselors focus on that direct service to students. But I saw a friend of mine posted on Facebook recently, who's a school principal, and I thought it was a really simple idea. And she was posting to families and parents and community members who, you know, are concerned about their schools and want to be involved in their schools. And she said, you know, if you want to help your school volunteer to be a crossing guard, volunteer to live buses, volunteer to help in some of these duty areas as appropriate, right, as the school finds appropriate, in order to, you know, give a teacher an extra duty hour or free hour for planning or in order to allow a counselor, you know, an extra opportunity to provide some of that direct service. And it's a simple idea, maybe it's a little pollyannish. But interesting idea is a way to involve our communities in our schools and to show our our teachers and our counselors and all of our school staff, right, that's support from us. So yeah, not a policy idea, because I think they have a lot of policy thrown at them already.
Scott Lee 21:28
Yeah, but at the same time, both of you were talking about as far as policy and policy change, how to free up teachers how to make teaching, the more creative and really SEL focused profession that we all imagined it to be when we got when we started to get into it. Thank you both for joining us today. It has been a lot of fun.
Brian Van Brunt 21:53
Thanks. Yeah. Thanks. It's been a blast. Hopefully, we can come back and share some other ideas. Yeah.
Scott Lee 21:57
Yeah, yeah, really? Yeah, definitely. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is brought to you as a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. If you would like to learn more about how we help schools and youth organizations, embed social emotional learning within their cultures, and implement strength based restorative interventions, please visit our website www.oncoursesolutions.net. I would also like to remind listeners, that in the summer of 2022, Reclaiming Youth International will be hosting the Reclaiming Youth Seminars at Augustana University in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. You may find out more information at reclaimingyouthatrisk.org. This has been episode number five of the spring 2022 season. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please tell your friends and colleagues about it either in person or using social media. We also greatly appreciate positive reviews on the podcast app you use. The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is hosted and produced by R. Scott Lee who retains copyright. We encourage diverse opinions, however, opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of producer, partners, or underwriters. Guests are never compensated for appearance, nor do guests pay to appear. Transcripts are available following podcasts publication at our website, thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Sponsorship opportunities or other inquiries may be made on the "Contact Us" page at our website thoughtfulteacherpodcast.com. Please follow the thoughtful Teacher Podcast on Twitter @drrscottlee
