Building a Culture of Care and Community with Dr. Maggie Broderick
Dr. Maggie Brodkerick shares her past experiences as a music teacher and her current work as a professor to tell how teachers can create a culture of caring in their classrooms-while also maintaining academic rigor. Many students are sometimes not connected to teachers or other students for a variety of reasons, but teachers can integrate the arts and social emotional learning to reach and engage all students.
Additional links
Maggie Broderick’s faculty page at National University
Harmony Academy resource mentioned in conversation
Sir Ken Robinson’s well known TED Talk
Transcript
Scott Lee: Greetings friends and colleagues, welcome to The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast, the professional educator’s thought partner-a service of Oncourse Education Solutions. I am Scott Lee. If you would like to learn more about how we partner with schools and education organizations please visit our website: www.oncoursesolutions.net and reach out.
As we begin the 2025 season, our guest is Dr. Maggie Broderick, a professor and dissertation chair in the Department of Teacher Education at National University, where she is also the Director of the Advanced Research Center. Before moving into higher education, Maggie was a K-12 music and German teacher, roles which we will talk about shortly. Besides her current teaching duties, she serves on review boards for several journals with interests in integrating social emotional learning, English Language Learning, foreign language education, diversity issues, and arts integration among other scholarly interests. On a side note, I graduated from a division of National University, but National University does not underwrite this program and The Thoughtful Teacher Podcast is always editorially independent.
Welcome Maggie to the thoughtful teacher podcast.
Maggie Broderick: Thanks so much for having me on Scott. It's great to be here today.
Scott Lee: So, let's start off, could you tell us a little bit about your early career as a teacher?
Maggie Broderick: Sure. Well, I love all the topics that you're diving into here with your podcast. Bringing out those issues in education that might not get as much attention, but it's so important and, it kind of does tie in with the things I do. I do a lot of different things. So, being a musician and a music teacher, it's really the driving force of how I got where I am today.
You might not think that teaching doctoral students online has anything to do with that, or, you know, I'm part of our work with social emotional learning at National University, and I'm also running an online research center at National. And, you know, people think that's not music teaching. Teach music online. No, right. But for me, they go together. So’ I'll tell you a little bit about it. So basically, I am one of those who marches to the beat of my own drum. And that fits for a music teacher, I suppose. But it's true that, when we follow our hearts, I think that that can be very satisfying, and so for me, like, I was a very quiet kid.
Really one of those kids where the teacher would say to my mom, “Oh, if we had 30 Maggie's, I wouldn't have any classroom management problems.” Right. This kind of quiet person, but music came very naturally to me and it felt really good in my soul. I loved playing the flute. being a section leader eventually in the marching band in high school, and things like this.
I just had that sense of belonging, and I did feel like a purpose, and that's a lot about SEL, just, just so you know. We'll talk more later, but it was a natural choice for me to become a music teacher then, you know, of course, and I really thought I'd be a band director. I really love that idea of how that felt for me, that space of band in the band room.
But it ended up that I got my job teaching K through five general music and it was in a German magnet school in the city of Pittsburgh. I speak German and I'm certified also in German and I got to put those things together but I did get to be a director. Like I did get to direct the choir and we had little ensembles with xylophones and, and loved it. That was in the nineties. While ago, as you said, early career. Yeah, I finished my PhD in teaching foreign languages, because I really do have that interest as well. But then, as I became a mom, I moved into higher ed a bit more and taught online as that became sort of more of a thing. In about 2009 or so, we started to see it proliferate. But even teaching online, that idea of kind of being a music director kind of fits, because anything we're doing in education, it's building community, just like a choir or an ensemble of other things, those xylophones, right? and we maintain that, and we work together as a team.
So, you have to know when to let each person in the group shine and go. say, cue them, it's your turn, and then we're going to blend and, you know, you, you let that person shine. And it's all kind of similar to me. So, I, even though it's online, it's not music, for me, I'm still sort of a band director in a way, in my own marching to the beat of my own drum way, I'd say.
Scott Lee: Yeah, and I did not realize, that you had, also been a German teacher or were certified as a German teacher as well, what was that like? We're going to digress just a little bit, what was that like teaching in a German magnet school? That must've been interesting as well.
Maggie Broderick: Well, it's pretty cool. And now looking back, I mean, like I said, it was the 90s. So, these kids that I had when they were, say, 9, 10, 11 years old, they are now, you know, 30 something or something like this. It's, it's kind of incredible. But really back then, it was a neat program, in Pittsburgh where in the 70s and 80s, they had, a lot of issues here with not having diverse schools.
We had to address desegregation efforts. And so, that was part of the answer to that. So, in the 90s, we had flourishing magnet programs and I got to do, gosh, German folk songs and dances and we had holidays and, and things like this and a lot of things involving the community where we would all come together and kids from all over the city would be learning language together and music and go together. So I had a lot of fun, , back then.
Scott Lee: So, it was not for native German speakers? All of your students were native English speakers.
Maggie Broderick: I got Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh kids from all over the city who came because they and their parents were like, “Hey, this is a cool opportunity. Let's learn some German.”
And we still have some programs on that building right now. I think they're doing Mandarin Chinese. Uh, so things evolve and change, but, you know, pretty cool to see that people come together to do these sorts of things from all over the city.
Scott Lee: Yeah. So, tell us about, your research interests, and maybe focus on some things that you wish, more teachers knew regarding individual educational practice.
Maggie Broderick: Sure, well, like I said, with the way I'm sort of a band director in my head right now, conducting some things, one aspect I'm doing is our advanced research center at National University. I'm the director as part of my role there, and we help people with their presentations and publications. And so, a lot of my work in the last year or so is around that.
Why do we publish and present and, what is sort of our motivation for that? And then how do we do it? Right? So, I'm trying to guide people. So that's, that's the most current role but before that, and still continuing, I was doing some stuff on online education and social emotional learning, particularly with my colleague, Dr. Amy Lyn. And, also Emily Springer, who's at National, University, looking at sort of the dispositions of educators, what makes someone have that sort of social emotional quality that makes you want to go to their class. I mean, my, my kiddo just started eighth grade, my youngest, and she really thinks one of her teachers is fantastic, and like, well, what is it that makes that person, makes him so great, and we talk about it, and it's, it's not necessarily his knowledge of math, Sure, if that's part of it, but it's, it's the dispositions.
So, some research on that. Also looking at sort of diversity issues with some colleagues; important issues about intersectionality and, I have a, colleague, Dr. Gary, they're amazing and they advance the cause for LGBTQIA, inclusion and things like this. And so, we do some stuff there but really thinking about, that SEL piece, it fits into everything.
One thing that I'd love to think about more that I began was about teachers who teach, like a less commonly taught content area, such as the band teacher, the choir teacher, language teacher, maybe it's someone who teaches metal shop, maybe anything where you're the only one doing this.
How does that feel for that teacher? What do they take on as sort of an emotional, labor in creating that community? So, I have a chapter I wrote called “Navigating the school as a smaller fish”. It's research-based guidance for teachers of less commonly taught content areas. And so, how did they create these really special spaces in schools?
Sometimes that help, maybe it's that. LGBTQIA plus kid. Maybe it's that neurodivergent kid or that really shy kid like me, to have this place. And sometimes they're taking on an awful lot and they're that, that fish, uh, swimming alone as the teacher where the other fish maybe have, you know, they're all this group that they have together and they have to do that, , by themselves.
How do we support those teachers and those programs and the kids in those programs so they don't just kind of die off, but so that they flourish? And everybody is getting, social emotional needs met and also all the learning that happens. So, with that in mind, if we think about that SEL piece a bit more and understand where it fits in, I think that might be a huge part of what we might be missing in some of these questions that come up in research.
Scott Lee: Yeah, it, it makes me think about a couple of things. One what you're mentioning about creating that small space and oftentimes it's one teacher doing that. That teacher is alone. And I, and I mentioned this because I was having a conversation a couple of weeks ago with a colleague who focuses a lot on how do you make all kids feel a sense of belonging in a school. And I'm, I'm also thinking with what you just said about, that one teacher that's by themselves. What does that one teacher, maybe, the band teacher or choir teacher or, metal shop teacher, whoever it is that doesn't have a natural network in the school.
What do they need for themselves to have a sense of belonging within maybe a faculty, do you have any thoughts about that?
Maggie Broderick: Yeah, no, I feel exactly the same.
Scott Lee: I digressed and threw you a curveball off the top of my head.
Maggie Broderick: No, I’m with you. I think we're on the same wavelength here because like I said, like your podcast, you're really looking at things where a lot of things are happening under the surface.
And then we, we realize, oh gosh, a lot, a lot is going on there. And maybe it's all on one person, or maybe it's all in one system. And if we don't support that, and we don't really think about it and nourish it, we will lose it. I was just at a conference recently, and it said, here is an alternative to gym class.
And it was in the area of the conference where people were selling things. Right. So then. The space there, I thought, “Hmm, I'll turn a gym class.” I'm intrigued. What do you mean? And they said, online gym class. And I was like, “Oh, gosh, that sounds like the COVID, you know, gym class, which doesn't sound so great.”
And it made me think about that. Like, how would you actually do that effectively? And would you lose something? Would it not just be physical education? Like, being effective, or would it also be the relationships through things like having, somebody modeling fitness and also coaching you through the process of being in just a team, just like in being an ensemble.
So, I mean, we really think, I really think you're onto something. And I don't think we're, we're touching past the surface on this enough. So, like, when I think about social emotional learning, academic ands rigor are very important, of course. Like, I am not against that. I, I have three kids ages 22, 18, and 13, and I'm, like, checking their online system when they were still in school. I check, I check the 13 year olds stuff. I make sure that they're doing the best they can to make sure they do their homework and all of that. I ask them questions. But, you It's really important that teachers, parents, everyone also think about that social emotional learning piece. And it's not just for the kids, it's for the teachers.
So, I know, for example, there's a great organization that we work with at National called Harmony Academy. And at Harmony Academy, they do have K-6 published materials where we see SEL, ways to do it, right? How do you, how do you do that? But it's more, you know, for the younger ones there, but we now are starting to see it in older, even adult learners, like let's say, okay, middle school, high school, and then even college.
And even like, I have students up until their eighties, I've had a student who was like 83. So, we need to think about them as whole people, whole human, we call it whole human education at National. And if we don't do that people get really stressed out and they do disengage. And then how can they learn?
So that sense of belonging and understanding that, we're not just in survival mode, whether it's the student or the teacher, whether it's the first grader on their first day of school or an 80 year old or a 45 year old or whatever the case may be. It's just a human thing that we have to really think about meeting them where they are, it's almost the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Like meet those needs first and then the beautiful learning can take place. That that's what we're there for is to, to try to foster that.
Scott Lee: One of the other things that I wanted to make sure that we talked about, that, I'm hearing a good bit about from teachers, is arts integration which I know you've, you've done a lot of work in. So, let's, shift gears a little bit and, and talk about that, as well. What are some effective strategies for non-arts teachers that they can use to integrate the arts into their content curriculum? And I want to mention that as somebody who has as a history teacher at times, tried poorly sometimes. In a world history class, one time I tried to use drama so when we get to the medieval period using morality plays, Faustus and things like that, of course, also a little bit of Shakespeare as we moved on and on and on. So, I tried it, but I, I didn't do as good a job as I think I should have. So, what are some things that you could tell a teacher like me who says, “gosh, I think this is a great idea, but. I did an awful job” or wants to try it and is a little afraid to?
Maggie Broderick: I think your advice right there in five letters, try it is, is the key, right?
Try it is definitely the first thing. And that's like leading with curiosity, right? Like thinking, “I would like to try something new.” I have these great memories. I can put myself back like. Gosh, that was a long time ago in the 90s to this one partnership with a specific first grade teacher who was just really open and just wanted to try new things and really just reflected a lot about things and I was a brand-new teacher in my 20s and I was the music teacher.
We partnered about some things she was doing with poetry and language in her, language arts classes. And I just remember the kids coming into my room and we did something, I don't know the exact thing, but I know we had the xylophones out and I know we had like something written on some kind of a poster or something.
And we were doing something with poetry and words and language from her, first or second graders. I think they were first graders, with music and it was powerful. And what was powerful about it was that. Everybody was kind of modeling that curiosity, right, that we. Both teachers were like, this could be pretty cool.
Let's give it like you said, try it five little letters. Try it. So, I'm sure we've seen like, kind of the memes go around on Facebook or a poster on the wall that says benefits of studying music or benefits of studying art. And yeah, sure. Or higher GPA, higher SAT score, all of this. It's going around but it's, it's deeper than that. It can bring that kind of pride in the process and the product for the kids. It models that curiosity and lifelong learning. And it shows kind of that, that social emotional piece where you connect with the arts. It's, it's really, within your soul a little bit more.
So, like some of the research is starting to show this, like brain research. If you look at some of the things that we've observed over time, or we'll say, “hey, higher SAT scores correlate for somebody in band. Hmm, interesting.” Well, we're starting to see that there's actually brain research, to look into.
So, I think you're onto something, and I really think one answer is sort of Carol Ann Tomlinson's approach to differentiated instruction. So, when we think about differentiating the process and product of something, do you have to always have a test? Do you have to always have a paper and pencil essay?
Do you have to always have, I want to say dittos because I'm from the past, but you always have to have, you know, worksheets? You don’t have to have worksheets. And you don't. You could have them, write a rap or a song about poetry. You could have them, draw something expressively, it's that interdisciplinary approach you mentioned.
It's, it can make it stick and it's meaningful. Like I remember that experience, not exactly what we did, but I remember how it felt. So, I would just say, just like you said, the five letters, try it, right? Partner with the teacher of the arts, model for students that this goes together. And then also that curiosity, you know, we have a thing in our culture that we seem to think it's all American Idol, or The Voice, or I don't know, some other thing with art where it's only these five artists are the only artists you have to be.
Scott Lee: Contest art. It can be entertaining, but it's not the only thing, right?
Maggie Broderick: Yeah, and if we think that, then, like, not everybody is on American Idol.
I sing in a choir. I love it. I am not going to be on American Idol. And I'm very fine with that. But you get the incredible joy from it. And then other people say, hey, can I join that choir? I can't really read music. Like, yes, you can join that choir. You'll learn as you go. And the curiosity and the try it, just like you said.
And same thing to model for our kids. We should really be teaching that message that no, it's not like, “Oh, you go from zero to American idol.” It's “Hey, we have art throughout our lives.” We, we play with it. We're learning through play, there's a great, person who passed away way too soon. Sir, Ken Robinson. I'm sure you're familiar with his work.
Scott Lee: Yes.
Maggie Broderick: Wonderful stuff. And he talks about creativity and, we need to have more of that playing with what we're learning. Art is a huge part of that, and we see that when we infuse the A into STEAM, you know, STEM and STEAM, but it involves those 21st century skills, creativity, critical thinking, communication, collaboration. But it's all of that powerful stuff that makes us human that we'll remember 20, 30, 40 years from now, as opposed to sort of just the facts and figures.
So, the arts can really bring that in if you do partner and you're, you're curious and you model that for the students.
Scott Lee: So, what about arts integration and how is that going to help our students, who have more intense needs? The more trauma informed practice, as well, because every teacher, is working with kids who have experienced trauma and we just know that now. And so how do you see that connection, between arts integration and trauma informed practice?
Maggie Broderick: Yeah, 100%. I see that going with the social emotional learning, the SEL, and at National, we do kind of group them together. Like, we have doctorates in trauma informed practices and also understanding SEL. We tend to use similar frameworks and similar, readings because they're two sides of the same coin. It's understanding. It's what's lying beneath the surface in either case. That, is not on some paper and pencil test.
It's so much deeper. It's human. We were talking a little bit about the brain research and the things we're starting to see. I've always been interested in music therapy and art therapy. And I remember thinking about studying that and went into music ed for various reasons anyway, instead of that.
But It's powerful. You can see anything from a very young child responding to this and being able to, you know, maybe if they're going through something very difficult, some terrible thing, violence in their life or something that that can help them to unlock and talk about things. Or, Alzheimer's with an older person, and you see them responding.
I've known some older people in my life who, have had dementia and Alzheimer's and things, and you hear them and see them respond to music, and it's, it's pretty powerful to realize. That's still something that's there, that's connecting, and you see that light and it's, it's a beautiful thing. And so, when we think about sort of that Maslow's hierarchy of needs and, and all of that, anyone who's faced trauma in their lives, it's that fight or flight. Some people say fight, flight or freeze. Is that a new thing right? The things they're feeling something very strongly, and it can disrupt our ability to focus and learn.
And you could be the smartest person in the room. But if you're feeling this emotional thing, it can really, stop you in your tracks. It makes learning very difficult. So, educators kind of have to take a moment and reflect, and it's difficult because in our culture, we do have this idea of sort of punishment and rewards, right?
It's like, oh, you were behaving this way, you will now be punished, and you're behaving this way, you will now be rewarded. I'm still unlearning some of that stuff, and yeah, it's part of our culture but, you know, when we think about, maybe reflecting more on what's actually happening inside of somebody, maybe there's some scary violence, like we said.
I'm even thinking about many of our kids going through, like, active shooter drills and some of that stuff. We really have to take a moment to pause and think more deeply about why someone's behavior Is what it is, or what's happening inside of them that we can't see might be manifesting in a different way.
Don't jump to conclusions. Don't be like, “Oh, I just have to punish and reward.” Everything will be it's just so much deeper. And I don't have every answer on that. But I think a huge step in the right direction is to understand if we have that culture of care, and we use that all through from the top of the educational organization through the whole community and have support people there. It's not just on one person as a teacher understand that culture of care is needed. It's at least a start. I don't think we have all the answers to be honest with you, but I do think just understanding like you said that it is happening and that's not always visible and that might manifest differently.
That's at least a start.
Scott Lee: Yeah. So, you mentioned that you're still trying to unlearn the punishment and rewards. And, Me too. I, I still am, having to remember that. What do you think teacher education programs should be doing differently regarding social emotional learning?
Maggie Broderick: Yeah, I mean, we're really just starting to get there. We've gotten so much more attention to it, and honestly, because of COVID, I oversee just one of our several programs that have SEL in the title. National's a huge university. Oh, yeah. Yeah, enormous. And so, we do have several, we have doctoral programs and master's programs and then we have things you tack on when you get credentialed in California to get more. So anyway, we have a lot. And the enrollments are up. And we see that since COVID.
Like, we went through something collectively as a world. All humans went through something. And we thought, “Hmm. Gosh, this is, uh, this is something we've got to start thinking more about.” And so, we had existing SEL programs and it exists. And it's not a new thing, but gosh, during COVID, it really expanded.
People are just paying more attention since, since that, because yeah, they, they went through it and they felt it made a change in our mindset. But I think, also in the social and political climate that we're in right now. People are also thinking about it, but if we focus more and more about, about that culture of care, and we really think about, not just going right to that.
Oh yeah, punishments, rewards. And I remember back in that same classroom in the nineties, that was really terrific. I loved it. I remember having a bulletin board and anybody [who] would hear me. They'd probably remember. I put up little stars, “Oh, you get five points of the star because, everybody's behaving today and now you'll get candy and a popcorn and Kool Aid party.” And we've had this whole system, right? It's still a thing. You know, we have, we have that, and at the same time, I didn't know any better, or any different, or have any way of phrasing what SEL is, I just, I knew I wanted to do differently, but teaching is hard, so we'll rely on sort of these, things we already know, and we're going in the right direction, like we're seeing more and more research and practice this; about thinking, you know, holistically about human beings and understanding, like, it's the student, the teacher, the parents, the families, the other aspects of the school, staff members, community. There's no easy fix or quick tip and trick, like, hey, use this bulletin board system and this, this, red light, yellow light, green light, and everything will be perfect.
It's not, because we're dealing with humans who are just so multifaceted. But I think the same thing, if we go from the top down and we infuse that culture of care and that. SEL from leadership down, then the teachers are supported and they can model that. And we can do a little better. It takes time.
It's, it's not going to happen quickly, but it'll take time and effort.
Scott Lee: With SEL there's some urban legends about it that we know are untrue. Sometimes, parents or other people in the community. What are some suggestions you have for teachers and how to talk with parents or members of the community about social emotional learning? Especially, in places like where I am, where there's a lot of things that are being said are somewhere ranking on the continuum between questionable and untrue.
Maggie Broderick: Yeah, so tricky. And the people who embrace SEL, they want to try to understand those people and where they're coming from too. So, they can become a whole lot to reflect upon for sure, Scott. I mean, there's a lot, a lot of layers there.
It's tricky. I think just to keep everyone Moving forward and staying a little bit sane about it within themselves and not going down too many rabbit holes. It's tricky because, we've got politics, we've got taking sides, this team and that team. It's almost like a Steelers fan here in Pittsburgh, right?
If you're not a Steelers fan here in Pittsburgh, then you're on the other side, “Oh, you're it's just this or that.” There's no sort of, you can't be like, well, I like Steelers, but I see some, I can't even say the Browns, some other team, right? Some other team is good too, right? I'm not really supposed to say that.
So, I get it. We take sides, right? But yeah, there are buzzwords, there's social media. Things get conflated and SEL has fallen into that. News media, social media, all of this. People tend to lump things together just like if, hey I'm a Steelers fan, or I'm a Browns fan, or whatever the case may be.
But yeah, they'll jump to conclusions and they'll choose sides. That's very normal and human to do. It can be dangerous and short sighted, like you mentioned, so I think, it's smart to think about it from, like you said, living in a different place. If you, if you live in a place where, things are embraced and it's being infused from the top down, that's one thing.
And if you don't, that's another thing. And that you can, you can start either way it might be more conducive than others. We saw that with COVID, right? Some places. People jump to conclusions on something and, you know, you end up in, okay, I can only go this far trying to move the needle. It's just, it's very human.
When we look at things, if you do look at, like, the primary source, and just try to get that noise to go away. That's usually a really smart place to start if you do want to try to move that needle forward. So, I would recommend going to that CASEL, C A S E L website, and other professional resources from trusted organizations maybe it's for the age level and content area you teach. So, for example, I work with some early childhood folks. They're wonderful people. Of course they care about social emotional learning. They might not use the exact terms, but they definitely do, so meet them where they are, use the terms they use, and it really does align.
If you look at the stuff from organizations for early childhood, which they may actually say, “Hey, yeah, I, this is what I do.” It's actually very, very similar. So, you can find that, and it's true for a lot of different contexts. If you're curious listeners could go and do a search of a library or Google Scholar for more evidence-based articles on social emotional learning or other topics like that culturally responsive teaching and things like culturally sustaining pedagogy and, and all of this and avoid some of those pitfalls because you go to the primary source or the professional organization instead of sort of, I don't know, Facebook or something, right? And you learn for yourself and then slowly find a community that you feel comfortable with.
Just start small, right? Baby steps go a long way just like we're modeling curiosity for our students and modeling lifelong learning, we can model like how we research things and say, “Hey, I found the primary source, I found the actual definition of SEL, I kind of get how this aligns with who I am, and I don't need to listen to all the noise out there.” And take your time, it's okay if you're in a place where this is more conducive, great, and if you're not, hey, do what you can and find a way where you can make your way, in baby steps and model that.
I think that feels good inside of ourselves when we're following our heart in that way.
Scott Lee: Any other specific resources you'd like to share, for best practices or, quality SEL interventions? You mentioned CASEL already and a lot of teachers are familiar with that. Do you have any other suggestions?
Maggie Broderick: Yeah, CASEL's great stuff. And then the Harmony Academy is really good, particularly through, the younger years. But Like I said about early childhood stuff, like, honestly, it applies. Like, when I look at something from Harmony Academy and I say, hey, that applies to my doctoral learners, that, then we're on to something, right?
I would say, “Wow, something from teaching younger learners, actually, it's human.” I can just sort of adapt this. So, I would say, yeah, definitely look at those things, CASEL and Harmony Academy. Always do your own primary research and look at, look at those sites and, and reach out. You know, I, I, love connecting with people so people can feel free to find me on LinkedIn or email me at national there mbroderick at nu dot edu. And, just, find, find your, your people. And I think that's probably the best advice to keep ourselves nourishing ourselves and our students.
Scott Lee: Well, thank you so much, Maggie. We appreciate you joining us today.
Maggie Broderick: Thanks so much. It's been a pleasure.
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